The Rowing Podcast
The Rowing Podcast
Dave O'Neill - "There's no place I'd rather be" - The Legacy of Jill Costello
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Dave O'Neill, of Texas Women's Rowing, shares a very special story about Jill Costello and the incredible impact that her battle with cancer had on her team and all of Cal Rowing.
https://vault.si.com/vault/2010/11/29/the-courage-of-jill-costello
My guest today is one of the premier rowing coaches in the United States. Early in his rowing career, he was one of the founding members of the men's rowing team at Boston College, where he meddled at U.S. Rowing Nationals, the U.S. Olympic Festival, the Grassby Sprints, and Canadian Headley. He would go on to coach the women's program at Boston College as well, guiding the team to wins at the Big East Regatta, the New England Championship, and the Champion International Regatta. The women's program at the University of California, Berkeley followed, where he guided the team to NCAA titles in 2005 and 2006 with runner-up finishes in 2013 and 2014. Under his leadership, the Varsity 8 placed top three at seven NCAA Championship regattas, winning titles in 2005 and 2013. The second varsity 8 posted 9 top 3 finishes, and the varsity 4 captured two NCAA crowns in 2011 and 2014. Cal also won 9 out of 11 Pac-12 conference titles during his time there. In 2014, the women's program at the University of Texas, Austin, came calling. In five short seasons, as head coach, he and his team have transformed Texas Rowan into a perennial national contender. The Longhorns have won five consecutive Big 12 conference championships since 2015 and have placed in the top ten at the NCAA championship in each of my guests' five years on the 40 acres, culminating in a program best second place finished in 2019. Looking at the trend, a national title is on the horizon for Texas. My guest has also had a profound impact on international coaching. Nine of his cow rowers raced for their respective senior national teams, and 11 competed for under-23 national teams. He led the under-23 U.S. women's national team to world championship titles in 2014 and 2006. Gold in the women's quad in 2007, and silver in the women's four in 2009. In 2018, he served as the coach for Serbia for the women's pair at the 2018 World Rowling Under-23 Championships. He also served as a U.S. senior team coach in 2009, 2010, and 2012. He also taught me and many others that the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing. I'm very happy to have on as my guest today, Dave O'Neill.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Well, thanks for having me, Matt. That was nice. Yeah, well, it's been it's been fun. It's been fun. If I look back, I kind of I kind of laugh like, oh, I have a career at this. Yeah, you know, keep on having fun and doing it. And uh yeah, I guess some of those things start to accumulate. So it's kind of funny. Like sitting sitting in my house, you really wouldn't know that I'm a rowing coach. There's not much rowing stuff around. Uh there are like those little NCA trophies that are tucked up high on the shelf somewhere, but that's about it. So yeah. Kids, the family definitely helps keep me grounded on everything.
SPEAKER_01Well, I was gonna say with the I mean, with how much, you know, how much coaching really takes up most of any coach's life, I would imagine that when you come home, it's like time to switch that off for a little while. Cause uh I mean it really is 24-7.
SPEAKER_00This spring 2020, it's been, I mean, it's hard, it was hard, you know, the season getting canceled, but the time with the family, it's been it's been really nice. You know, it's been really sweet. And uh, you know, I have three kids, uh, 10, 7, and 4 and a half, and uh yeah, it's been really nice spending time with them. So much time, you know, so much time in the spring. It's been really just been great. How's life in Austin? Yeah, uh, it's been six years now, and uh it's been great. We've the transition's been it's been uh it's been really good. I mean, and and Austin is just taking off in terms of development and it's booming, and but it's still keeping its small city vibe, you know, and it's kind of cool being a coach at the University of Texas. You know, there's no pro sports teams here. You know, it is, even though the city is getting bigger and bigger, it is definitely still has a bit of a college feel to it. And um, you know, everyone, everyone's fans of the longhorns here. The one thing summer, it's it's quite hot in the summer, but that takes that it takes some adjusting too. You know, you recalibrate and uh if you go for a run at four o'clock in the afternoon in August, you gotta be prepared for some heat.
SPEAKER_01Let's start way at the beginning. Uh, where were you born and and where's your hometown? Way at the beginning.
SPEAKER_00I was born on a February, born in 1969 in Salem, Massachusetts. Uh born in Salem, Massachusetts, moved to Cambridge early on, so you know, uh Cambridge, Massachusetts, and then uh then moved to Arlington, Massachusetts, town just next to Cambridge. And um, you know, I was a pretty good athlete growing up, you know, an older brother, and it's certainly very competitive with him. I think maybe in high school I was pretty good with some things, but maybe it got distracted at other things at times. I think really, you know, found rowing my freshman year in Boston College, where I walked across the Dust Bowl, they call it, but it's actually like like the campus quad. And you know, there was some people like, you know, sit sitting there at a booth, set up a table and like, hey, what are you doing? They're like, oh, we're starting a rowing team. Like, wow, that sounds cool. And before I knew it, hey, I joined the rowing team. And I admit, like, it was partially for the social aspect of things, you know, and then soon enough and find myself on the ground floor of the you know, starting BC crew. A few months into it, I was like, you know what, I want to get good at this. Started working out more and what I at least at the time, what I thought was working hard, you know, and did okay. Uh I mean did okay for a you know startup club program, and then uh continued on and sort of fell into the coaching. Was fortunate enough to get hired at Boston College, first year out of out of school. And uh was coaching in, try tried to coach in to continue to train at the same time, you know. But I quickly I think I realized that I was a better coach than I was a rower. So I was coached at Boston College for seven years, and then somehow that turned into got a great opportunity to coach it, move out to California. Very grateful to Steve Gladstone for giving the opportunity for that. Coached the women's team there, and then did okay, and then that turned into at the time sort of an odd move, maybe not an odd change with leaving Cal to go to Texas, but uh I think it was definitely the while you were there that summer when I made the decision. I think the right move at the right time for me to for me and my family to do. When I was in school, I never really planned on being a rowing coach. Um, I was a history major in college, and I always thought that I was gonna my mom is a back up. My mom is a teacher, my dad always worked worked for the Boy Scouts of America and then also for the Salvation Army. Uh my sister's a teacher, you know, so I guess we come from a family of public service in a way. So when I was in college, I kind of always thought that I was gonna be get into outdoor education, you know, like outward-bound type of thing. Uh, because I fully believe that, you know, the the lessons we learn in group activities outside are uh are really quite life-changing. So I always kind of thought I was gonna fall in, you know, get into something like that. But then uh got into rowing and got into coaching, and after doing that for a couple of years, the uh one of the coaches at Boston College, John Shavato, he had asked me, he had said, Hey, what do you plan on doing for a career? You know, because we coach in the club program at BC, you know, you never really got paid anything. So I was always doing working as an EMT or working as a mover or working as a bike courier, bike messenger. And so I was like, I was like, ah, I'm gonna get into outdoor education at some point. He's like, you should think about coaching. You're pretty good at this. I'm like, really? Huh? Just kind of think of that, sort of thought that thought that through a little bit more, like, oh yeah, well I guess you know, instead of working for someone with outward bound for like two or three weeks, you get to work for someone for two, three, four years. And, you know, the impact that you can have in the life, you know, the life-changing experience that people can have. And um, yeah, so that's that's kind of I think my story and how I got into it. And I think that sort of gets into very much what sort of kept that thinking, even with our coaching now. It's you know, I definitely come to come to the coaching aspect in terms of more from the the artist side of things rather the artist educator side of things rather than the scientist data analytics side of things, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01At least I know that the summer that I spent with you, the thing that I really enjoyed was watching, you know, you you kind of what's a good way to put it? Like when you're when you're coaching certain parts of the stroke, you really kind of like I felt like you really work through the technique versus making it it's about this split or about this length exactly. Let's it's more about kind of feeling. It's more about getting a uh a unique kind of um tactile sensation for the boat, which at least uh uh compared to myself, that's that's a lot of what my earlier coaches like in high school were talking about all the time. We actually very rarely talked about like the body. We talked a lot more about the boat and how it moved and how it felt and what you want to be kind of looking for. And so I actually really enjoyed it. That was kind of a nice, refreshing, different approach because I've had I've had both sides. I've had the other side of coaching where it's you know super strict on body movement and um the numbers and what have you, and it's all very valuable. Um but it just you know, like I said, it was nice to get back to the other side of it for a little while.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like I'm always trying to like what what's the athlete feeling? Putting you know, doing it from the athlete perspective, like what are they feeling rather than what I'm seeing? You know, because if I'm talking about like what what it should look like this, then they start focusing on trying to please me, like, oh, it should look like this rather than you know, yeah, what should the feeling of the rowing stroke be like? Yeah, so cool. I'm glad they picked up on that because that's that's good to hear. Thanks for the feedback.
SPEAKER_01Well, the you know, you m you brought up a good point, and just to echo what you're saying a bit, the the idea of like what it looks like. Um, I even found that same thing with, and I'm sure you're being from Boston, having probably clocks plenty of ergometer miles yourself, you know, doing rowing in front of an uh erging in front of a mirror, for example, I feel like you could even overdose on that. Because I know that there are certain points in college where I'd done so much rowing in front of a mirror to kind of look like uh how I knew the ideal was supposed to look like. But when I suddenly took the mirror away, it felt very weird. I'm like, oh, oh God. I I I realized that I hadn't my feedback loop had been visual. My feedback loop had not been physical. And I thought, oh my God, when you really overdose on one, you you actually start to pull away very strongly from the other. And you don't actually have the same feeling. You're almost like a feeling of vertigo if you suddenly take the mirror away. So um, yeah, I think there's there's value to both sides for sure, but overdosing on one or the other can can lead to an interesting result. Yeah, totally agree. What about coaching hooked you? You know, what was the thing that that you thought, like, you know, I actually want to keep on doing this? Do you feel like there was a light bulb moment or a series of them?
SPEAKER_00Uh I don't think there was ever a light bulb moment. I guess it was just kind of like, hey, I'm enjoying this, I'm doing it, like I'm having fun, I'm getting paid, and then I've started getting paid more, and then it turned into a full-time job. Like, hey, this is so I guess I always liked the comp I certainly like the competition. And I've but the day-to-day figuring out the puzzle of things, like that sort of challenge, I've always I've always sort of connected with and enjoyed. You know, so I think every year, it's a you know, every day, every practice, there's a there's different challenges and different things to figure out. So it's always been fun for me, you know. And I guess I've never really been much of a planner, you know, so I guess maybe it is one of those things like, yeah, find a job you love, you don't have to work a day in your life. And that's why, you know, like I said earlier, like I kind of laughed at I have a career at this because it was never really planned. You know, I remember my parents being, you know, I was in my mid-20s, you know, like, you know, coaching the club program and you know, no health insurance, you know, like you know, barely could pay rent. And they're like, hey, when are you gonna get a real job? I'm like, yeah, I don't know. And they're like, man, you're just sort of like skating through life, aren't you? I'm like, I don't know. And then uh, you know, somehow then got the Cal job and started getting, you know, having a real job, and then it's turned into this job now. And so yeah, there was never real any clear intent. But I guess the clear intent was I always wanted to do a good job. You know, so I think maybe when I, you know, some advice that I give for younger coaches, like, don't do things for the resume. You know, don't do things necessarily in the resume builder, but you know, everything that you do and have different experiences, do a good job with it, you know, and then people are gonna know it's not necessarily who you know, it's who you know and what they think about you. You know, so I'd always try to do a good job with, you know, when I was coaching at Boston College and I was coaching over the summer at Riverside, or even like coaching the summer out in Worcester at Queen Sigaman Rowing Association, and I was like, yeah, I want to do a good job, you know, and always connected and like enjoying meeting new people and those experiences and having fun with it. So it's been it's been a lot of fun. It was never really planned. Yeah, I'm really grateful to have this job and continue to have a career in this. And yeah, because I think rowing is awesome. Like it's a it's an awesome sport. So uh, you know, and I think the people that you meet in rowing and the people that are involved in rowing, and the people that do it for in it for years, there's some wonderful, amazing, talented, smart, funny, passionate people. And I think that's I think what really keeps me going with it all is is the people.
SPEAKER_01What story do you have for us today that you'd like to share?
SPEAKER_00Oh, good question. But I think maybe the one thing that I'd like to say, you know, I say this, you know, talking to recruits, and I'd say this in different like coaching conferences, and maybe it's kind of even along what I was saying earlier, but like I believe that rowing can change the world. Okay, like rowing, if everybody if everybody was on a high-level, you know, athletic team like ours, at some point in their life, the world would be a better place. You know, because I fully believe that the lessons you learn in the pursuit of excellence in a team sport, in a team, certainly a team sport like rowing, the lessons you learn in the that pursuit of excellence, they're they're life-changing. The lessons in terms of teamwork, collaboration, leadership, communication, confrontation at times, uh planning and preparation, following the rules, how to deal with failure, uh resilience and grit, how to deal with pressure, how to deal with success, hopefully, you know, how to deal with a boss like myself. Um, you know, all those lessons you learn in the pursuit of excellence in a rowing team, you know, it makes it forces you to become a better person. You know, so it's so for me, like it's like the the reason I and I'd like I'd like to think the reason why the teams I've coached have been successful. I think the training is good, I think the technique is good, but I think it really comes down to the development of us as people along the way, you know, and I think that's what we're really uh what rowing can give us. Yeah, so I think you know the the sport is, you know, like we say it's the ultimate team sport, and it's really hard to describe to other people like what's so great about it. Um, but when they start doing it and they get cooked on it, like and how it does become so much of a lifestyle. Yeah, I just think rowing is awesome. And I think one of the things that sometimes you know, I don't want to get negative, but I think sometimes when people I think sometimes us in the rowing community, we sometimes like we talk down about rowing sometimes, you know, and like we don't like build it up enough and how and like be, you know, like I'm a biggest fan, I'm a huge fan of our team, I'm a huge fan of the sport. And I just think it's you know, the the like the lessons that we've learned and all of it, like it's there's so much encompassing in rowing to making a boat go fast, just in terms of the teamwork, the mental side of things, the physical side of things, the physics in all of it, and the rigging and the technique. It's just it's it's everything. You know, I just hate it when people are like, oh, rowing's not a spectator sport, you know, or it's like it's an awesome spectator sport. If it's packaged right, you know, and if we know what's going on, like it's it's an awesome, awesome sport to watch. And the races are awesome. I mean, I've been to some some events, I've been to Formula One and NASCAR, you know, and some other stuff. I'm like, yeah, like if you don't know what's going on, it's boring. But if we know the story behind behind things, it's really it's really quite amazing. So and that's why I love following collegiate rowing and you know, seeing what you know a couple years ago when what the IRA, Yale, and Washington were like battling it out, and this was gonna be like, okay, did Washington 2017 when the women swept NCAs and the men were almost going to sweep IRAs, and this was gonna be like, yeah, you remember this, right? You know, you know, Washington was right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I remember it pretty well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like Washington, Washington was so close to sweeping collegiate men and collegiate women's rowing. I'm like, oh my goodness, and they're ahead, and here's Yale and Steve Pladstone about to win his like eighth, you know, coming down to you know, to win his eighth, and like pass the all-time winning is like, oh my goodness, the drama with that. But I knew the backstory of it all. I'm like, this is amazing. And like, you know, such a tight race and such a tight finish. And uh, I think if that was packaged the right way, that would have been like that last 500 meters and just not just the race itself, but just all of it that was going into everything. I was like, this is this is amazing. Yeah, I'm a fan. I'm a I'm a huge fan of the sport, you know, and even just I've been really happy to be part of the development of the women's rowing scene. And like I think the NCA regatta is the coolest regatta in the world. Like, it's so cool. Okay. Like I have coached at the World Championships and the under-23 championships and I've coached at the Olympics. The Olympics are super cool in their own right, but the NCA championships, when it's the team event, and I'll argue with anybody if anybody's like, oh, like it should be the varsity eight, that's the that's the main event. Like it is the main event, but the team event at the NCAs is awesome. Like when you have the four screaming their lungs out for the first eight because it's about the team. And then the first eight, like, how did the four do? We need the four to get in the final, you know, and not just because they're friends, and that's like, yeah, it'd be interesting, but like it's that the NCAA championship is the team, and it's it's a cool I don't know, it's cool. And I think the Olympics, I think the Olympics, to be honest, would be better served if there was a team medal at the Olympics, you know, just as they have it in gymnastics. But that that could be another podcast, you know. So anyway, so I'm a huge fan of the sport, what the lessons you learn about all of it. Yeah, so one story to certainly share is that of Jill Costello. It's kind of funny because you know, quite appropriate I actually, because ten years ago today um was the Pac-12 championships where Jill Costello cocks the varsity eight at Cal. And rewind from there about 11 months back, Jill got diagnosed right after the NCAA Championships, where Jill coxed four at NCAAs, and you know, team came in second at the 2009 NCAA championships and uh and Jill had a lump. You know, it's like, hey, what's going on? So right after the NCAAs, he went and got checked out and turned like that turned into one test or another test, and boom, right away, you know, like, hey Jill, you've got stage four lung cancer. It's like, whoa, you know, and if you look up like you know the the prognosis of stage four lung cancer, like it's not good. So that turned into a whole series of events, like, okay, Jill took the fall off to battle the cancer. She really, really wanted to come back to the team in spring 2010, and we made it work, and she came back. And Jill had always been a fun, happy, you know, happy go-lucky kid. But when she came back to the team in January, January, February, she was definitely had a little bit more gravitas to everything because, well, she was literally fighting for her life. So then she was going through chemo, and I remember, you know, I remember one moment in particular, you know, she was like, hey, we had a I think our first race at Lake Otoma, you know, late March, not Lake Notoma, at uh Redwood Shorts. And um Jill comes along, you know. I get a text from Jill a Friday evening before we're gonna have practice row. It's like, hey, I'm running a little bit late. My chemo got delayed. Is it okay if I'm like 15 minutes late? I'm like, yes, it's quite all right. You know, like you're battling, your chemotherapy is touching the yes, it's okay to be 15 minutes late for this you know, practice row, no problem. So then, you know, she was coxing our second eight and doing a really good job. Uh comes to the last dual race of the year, Cal versus Stanford, the big row, and that was a you know, certainly a big deal, and especially because we, I think we got swept the year before by Stanford. And uh, but Jill was headling to Italy, you know, this for that weekend because there's a grotto in Italy and it's kind of I still have the water, this grotto in Italy had shown to provide miracles to people. So she went basically on like a pilgrimage to this mirac to this grotto. She was literally hoping for a miracle now. Because the chemo wasn't working, the radiation hadn't been working. So I got the idea like, hey, let's instead of race as cow, let's race as Team Jill when we go up against Stanford. So that Jill would, even though she couldn't be there, we're going to be there racing for her. So that was the first year that uh got these uniforms made with their favorite color, um, turned that around in like a couple weeks. Um, and we turned on so and we turned to you know, put the vinyl on the blades, you know, everything. So now we're Team Jill. And uh and then we went on and we swept Stanford, and that was a huge event. And uh Jill, you know, was tuning in and checking things out from uh from Italy, and then came back and then big bit of a shakeup uh in the next couple of weeks, and now Jill's cocksing the varsity. You know, she's cocks in the first eight, and again it's Cal versus Stanford, and we go on and we win that, we win the we win the Pac-12s. Uh but throughout Jill, all along, she was she could not have been more positive, more inspiring, more uplifting to everybody, to everybody. And it was like, you know, and she had this blog that we would be checking out, and like the words of encouragement and just what she and just what she was going through was just heart-wrenching, but she was just so positive and happy, you know, and she was like, I want to be here, I want to be here with you. So any of us who had any problems, it was just like, okay, we have nothing compared to what Jill's going through. And uh, and to see that how she was doing, dealing with it. Um, to then go on to NCA's. We go to NCAs on Wednesday, the course opens on Wednesday afternoon. Jill couldn't be there on Wednesday afternoon because her last round, you know, when you have cancer, they do scan, full body scans to see if this cancer is spreading. She had already been through four rounds of chemo, I think, and they would take they were doing the scans to see if her body was about, you know, if the scan, if the chemo, that latest round of chemo is working. So she was going to San Francisco to have her scans read on that Wednesday. And so she was like, hey, I'm gonna be at practice late. I'm gonna get there late, you know. It's like, okay, I'm like, hey, good luck. Good luck. I know that I know what's going on. It's like, yes, I I pray for me, like I hope these scans worked out well. As you know, as we are at Lake Atoma, the whole team except for Jill is there, and I get the text from her. It's like, you know, got bad news. I'm gonna start tearing up here. It's like got bad news, it's you know, the latest round didn't work. My treatment is now gonna turn to just keeping me comfortable. Like, oh so realizing what that meant, like they're just gonna try to keep her comfortable, like just for the last few days. So I gotta talk to the team, you know. So I talk to the team, I'm like, hey guys, like, okay, Jill got bad news, you know. And I was like, hey, so then it was like, we cannot control how many days Jill has left. Okay, we don't have any control over how many days Jill has left with us, but we do have control over what those days are going to be like. Okay, so we do have a, you know, we can't control how many days she has, but we do have control over the quality of those days. So let's make these days absolutely special. And the team, like, you know, kids are crying. Uh, I'm crying. Uh, but we're all like, okay, we got this, we got this. And it was really so it was so amazing how the team responded, like, yes, we're gonna, we are good, we're here for Jill. We're gonna make this as as wonderful a time as we can. Um, Jill shows up, and I'm like, hey, are you okay? She's like, there's no place I'd rather be. Like, oh, okay. So she gets in the boat, they row like 4K or something, and she comes out, and I'm like, and she's like, Yeah, I might need a minute, but you know, but but then throughout she was like, Yep. She did everything she did, everything she could, she she needed to do to race, you know, and then she, you know, NCAs were probably like on May 30th or so. Uh, we're in a battle um with Virginia for the team title. That Sunday we decided, hey, we're gonna we're not gonna wear our unisuits, we're gonna wear our team Jill, we're gonna wear our team Jill uh tanks for that, and that turned into uh a really, really emotional day. Uh yeah, super, super emotional day. And we close second to Virginia in the team title. I think Yale won the varsity eight. Um, but that was also uh fans from all these other teams are like, oh Dave, like we're oh my goodness, we're pulling for you. Like, okay, we're definitely Cal fans today. We're definitely Team Jill fans. And it was like, it was really, really sweet. And then she passed away maybe three weeks later. Yeah, I think of her every day. Uh, and whenever I might be having a hard moment, I'm like, okay, like it really is like, oh, how would Jill handle this? You know, and like she she had said that that uh you know, life is all about how the how we handle the challenges we're given. You know, I'm like, yeah, she was giving some huge challenges, and she dealt with it in the most gracious, positive, uplifting way possible. So um, yeah, if you don't know who Jill Costello is, everyone needs to know who Jill Costello is. There's a great story from Sports Illustrated, written by Chris Ballard, called The Courage of Jill Costello. And uh yeah, that's a name that everybody should know. She's a legend. Yeah, so I'm really glad that Cal has kept on that tradition of the team Jill. And I give Stanford credit for that as well, for the you know, the big row it turns into the Jill Costello row. Yeah, so when you see Cal with the team Jill, it's about Jill Costello and her battle against cancer and all the and it wasn't just a matter of like, oh, someone who got cancer and who passed away, but just the life that she led and the effect that she had on all of us. And you know, what you can do when you're posed with the biggest, you know, you're literally fighting for your life. You know, and uh yeah, she was fighting for her life, but in the process in her fight, it wasn't just Jill against cancer. It was, hey, I'm gonna have this big tent. I'm gonna bring everybody in, and everyone's gonna fight for this with me because the power of the team, the power of the collective, you know, it didn't just turn into the fight about against cancer, but just like how about living every day to its fullest and you know, be kind to one another and love one another and bring each other up. You know, so I think that's what so much of the team Jill has turned into, you know, or was at the time. Yeah, so she is definitely she's had a profound effect on me. Yeah, and how to see things and and even like sometimes like, yeah, like okay, so we didn't win NCAs, but like I didn't it's okay, you know, but like we had the we had this shared moment. Um, and there were, you know, I think everyone who was part of that team, yeah, an experience that they'll never forget. And that, you know, had a huge, huge effect, huge, huge effect on them. And it made and I think that's what I said about you know, growing makes us better people. You know, I think getting to know Jill and having gone through that experience has made me a better coach and a better person, hopefully a better father. Yeah, and it touched me in every in every single way.
SPEAKER_01If your uh closest friends could only describe you using three words, meaning three distinct adjectives, which words do you hope that they would use for you? Loyal.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, loyal, encouraging, and hopefully funny.
SPEAKER_01What drives you and motivates you, not only as a coach, but just personally and you know, I guess spiritually?
SPEAKER_00Good question. And I'd say maybe even going back to like the Jill Costello story, but like, you know, how to become a better person and do the right thing. Um yeah, like and I think that's what Hyrule said, like, you know, rowing makes us better people. And I think that's what I think drives me every day in terms of the coaching practice. Like, okay, what do we have to do to get better today? Um and uh yeah, just keep keep on getting a little bit better, a little bit better every day. And like it's amazing what what that's gonna turn into. So, you know, and that's and the other thing, I guess it's like, you know, you might see things like it's not that hard. It's like work hard and be a good person. You know, it's like, yeah, like it really is that simple. You know, work hard, be a good person. And uh, and I think that's what I'd like to think the teams that I coach are about, and I think what I'm about. Like, you know, it kind of drives me every day. Yeah, do the right thing, be a good person. It's a it's it's it's amazing how far that's gonna take you.
SPEAKER_01On the flip side of that, um, what are things or what is the thing that really kind of turns you off and demotivates you?
SPEAKER_00When people are scheming, you know, when they're trying to like, okay, that they're trying to be opportunistic in things, or they're just they're trying to get one over on you, you know, or trying to play the game, you know. It's like, hey, it's like don't try to weasel your way into this or trying to scheme your way into something. Like, let's be be let's be genuine. And um, yeah, that's kind of a big turnoff when people are trying to yeah, trying to try to play the game rather than let's all be in this together. And I think that that becomes a pretty big turnoff. Yeah, and we see, you know, it's true, certainly when you get into like the higher levels of things, you start seeing that where it's like all just becomes all about the winning rather than yeah, it's not just about the winning, it's it's it's about the pursuit of winning. You know, let's all let's all do the let's all do it the right way.
SPEAKER_01Who is somebody that you admire in rowing and why?
SPEAKER_00First and foremost, like I said, the Jill Costello story, you know, I've admired her, and then all of the different people I've met and had a chance to work with over the years. I mean, there's gonna be so many. And I guess I'm I'm gonna decline to say one name because then I'll I know I'll leave some people out. Uh my wife, Nicole, I admire her a ton, and she uh wrote at the University of Virginia, and then she coached at Cal for a bit and coached at Stanford, and then she coached, she's a head coach of St. Mary's, and you know, and I have a great admiration for her and for what she did in the in the sport. And I rely on her every day. And it's like, hey, how's practice? Like, okay, hey, I need your advice on this. And so uh I definitely think my coaching career has been a team effort. You know, and then you know, I've certainly had the opportunity to to work alongside some of some super successful coaches, um, and feel very fortunate for that and you know have great admiration for for Mike Katie and for for Steve Gladstone. You know, feel fortunate too have been my time at Cal. Certainly learned a lot from them. Yeah, and they're genuine good guy, good guys as well. So it's good.
SPEAKER_01What's your favorite boat class and why?
SPEAKER_00Favorite boat class, good question. Favorite boat class. I I've turned that into not just certainly it's either the eight or the team, the NCA team, the first eight, second eight, four. Okay, so it's not just the individual boat class, but the whole team, I think is awesome. You know, like I've gone to you know, gone to the Olympics with just a pair with a double and to you know, under 23s and the world championships with just a pair, and that's been fun, but I'm definitely a team guy. And I think sometimes like the bigger the team, the more fun it is. So uh yeah, it's certainly like I love being at NCAs when it's like this focused group of you know, the first eight, second eight, and the four and the coxswains and the alternates and the staff. Like it becomes um I love that. I love that feeling when it's like, hey, there's about 30 of us and we're uh super focused on this one effort. And I think that'd be different if it was uh just three of us, you know. So yeah, and I love yeah, being on the water with an eight or two eights battling it out. There's like that's that's that's the sport to me. You know, be yeah, being on the water, two eights going, you know, just killing themselves on a Tuesday morning for no other reason than to beat their best friend. Like that's that's what's great. So yeah, I'd say the eight, the eight or add on to it the whole VNCA squad, the NC the team. What's uh what's your favorite racing distance? Uh 2,000 meters, for sure. 2,000 meters is the distance, you know. And I think that's I heard uh podcast with Tom Terhar. You know, Tom, super smart guy, and you know, I'm glad I've had the opportunity to work with him as well. And Tom's saying that he likes the 2,000 meter distance because it requires the time. You know, you can't fake your way through 2,000 meters. You've got to put in the time, you know, you've got to put in the time of training. Yeah, the 2,000 meters is great. And that's where I think it's great. Like lining up six eighths, 2,000 meters, it's awesome. You know, like there's no other sport like that. You were just like, take imagine you have like the equivalent of six baseball teams, right? Six baseball teams, you're all gonna like battle note at once. You know, like that's it, that's six eighths across, the equivalent of like six baseball teams, like ready go. And like the amount of energy and the excitement and the back and forth, like you know, like last year, NCA finals, the first eight NCA finals, like it was like awesome racing. And it was like so exciting. So yeah, 2,000 meters for sure.
SPEAKER_01Uh do you have a favorite pre-race mantra to prepare yourself or your crew?
SPEAKER_00Good question. Pre-race mantra, yes, I think uh for me as a coach, uh, there's two things that I'm always mindful of is to never run and never yell. Okay. So like if you see a coach, if you ever see if you see a coach on race day who's running and yelling, it's like that he or she is sending the wrong message to the team. Okay, so it's always like, hey, yeah, always be cool. Uh make sure that you're you know your your sense of control, your sense of coolness, that is going to you, your your your athlete's gonna really appreciate that. You know, so then it's so then for the athletes it turns like, hey, you know, trust yourself, trust each other, and then it's just have fun, go fast. It's really that simple. Like have fun, go fast, and just focus on us, do our thing, don't worry about everybody else, have fun, go fast, and you're it's and you're gonna kick ass. So it's really keep it, keep it, keep everything calm, keep the excitement to a minimum because everyone's nervous, everyone's gonna be raring to go. But we sort of uh talk about like what do we have to do to be really in the right spot in the third 500. You know, because sometimes those big rah-rah three-way speeches are really good for the first 250. I'm always like, yeah, I'm certainly mindful of like let's everyone keep stay calm, let's be cool, you were prepared, and now let's have fun with with what we what we've just done. So another thing we say is like, yeah, treat every day if we treat every day during training like it's the NSA championship, once we get to the NSA championships, we just have to treat it like it's every other day. If our training was right, if our preparation was right, we get to NSA's, we just have to do like we did it on some other Tuesday morning in February.
SPEAKER_01You know, one thing that just to give a visual for the people listening that I witnessed when I was kind of just as something of an intern for you with the U23 Women was before the big races, you would bring the entire boat together, kind of huddle up. And I remember I think it was like three distinct breaths. Like, okay, take a deep breath. Okay, I let it out, take a deep breath, let it out. And I actually thought that that was very it's actually very like almost like meditation-like, because that's something that's a focal point in meditation is um controlling the breath, putting a focus on something else, and getting getting becoming very mindful of yourself. And I always thought that that was incredibly valuable. And I noticed, I think I saw you do it, uh I saw it somewhere else afterwards and I realized, oh, that's like a that's a standard thing. And I and I realized how valuable that actually is. Because I know in a funny way, it's like sometimes the the pre-raced mantra is just as valuable for the coach as it is for the athletes. And I definitely needed a couple of deep breaths before my cruise went out.
SPEAKER_00Well that's where it's certainly uh yeah, that those three deep breaths, that's turned into more. It's almost like the whole race plan. So it turns not maybe the whole race plan, but you know, sort of every like 250, so every 500, so it get turns into like, I don't know, seven or eight deep breaths. But I remember reading something years ago, and it was saying like the all physiologically, the only difference between anxiety and excitement, okay, physiologically, in terms of heart rate, body temperature, uh, blood pressure. The only difference between anxiety and excitement is your rate of breathing. Okay, so if you can control, if you can help turn that anxiety or that fear, you know, or that nervousness, you can help turn that nervousness into excitement by controlling your breathing. You know, so yeah, so it is so it is certainly part meditative. So it is like, yeah, like using, you know, because uh you know, aside that's the only physiological difference between those. So if you can help that, and like that that helps create, you know, now like controlling your mind, like, okay, I can do this. Like helps calm yourself down rather than just that nervousness. So yeah, good observation. Yeah, so that's ever every race, yeah. Every boat, every race for the last, I don't know, 10, 15 years. It's like, yeah, let's get together, let's huddle up, and like we just go through that last little bit, and then hands in and then Texas on two, one-two, Texas, here we go. Um, it hasn't been Texas for the last 15 years. It's been Texas for the last five or six years. So well, the last five years, we didn't get a chance to do that this year.
SPEAKER_01Do you have a favorite race course or favorite regatta?
SPEAKER_00Favorite regatta, absolutely the N State Championships. That is, you know, the roller coaster ride, the emotions, the excitement, the tallying of the points, the uh the camaraderie, the pageantry, and like the like the and that's where there's nothing about like big time Division I athletics, and I'm a huge fan of that. Um so so and so NSA's is certainly the favorite regatta, you know, and I've been, you know, like I said, I've been to uh quite a few of them around the around the world. And then favorite race course, you know, I guess it could be Lake Natoma, since I've been, you know, been there so many times and have so many great memories there. But also I think that is like the last what 200, 250 meters is like perfectly set up along the beach and you're close to the sh you're close to the action. Um yeah, I think that's that's a super spectator-friendly spot, and the weather often is pretty nice there. So yeah, I'd probably say Lake Potoma. NSA is at Lake Potoma. That's been I think that's that that's a that's a good setup.
SPEAKER_01What profession other than your own would you like to attempt?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, good question. What what other than rowing coach, what could I do? I'm like, I kind of joke around, like, I only have two skills, everybody. I'm like, I used to be able to say, hey, let's have a good practice and go bears, and now it's like, hey, let's have a good practice and now hook them horns. That's the only thing I can do. But uh I guess if I wasn't, if I didn't get involved in this, looking back on things, I think I'd really like to have gotten into film. Uh, and not from the acting, but I think maybe like the directing of things. I'm fascinated by film directors. Um I think oftentimes like rowing coach is very similar to like a film director, where the the rowers are the actors, and the the athletic directors are the producers, and the the coach is the director, and how you have to set the stage for so many different things for the for the athletes to go and perform. And I'm sort of fascinated by that. And I like yeah, I like the the artistry of that.
SPEAKER_01That begs the next question.
SPEAKER_00Uh, do you have a favorite director? Good question. You know, I might have to say right now, Christopher Nolan might be my favorite director. You know, he uh I think what he did with Memento was really, really good, and then sort of changing tunes and uh Interstellar, I think is another really good movie.
SPEAKER_01Well what profession would you not like to do?
SPEAKER_00An accountant. I am definitely not that type of person. But I'm very fortunate to be, you know, to work with people that are very good with that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01Well, to this day, why are you still hooked on rowing? And do you feel that this has changed from what hooked you originally?
SPEAKER_00I think I'm hooked on it all for the same, still the same reasons in terms of you know the interactions with people, the positive effect you can have on people's lives. Yeah, working towards a common goal, I think that's what's uh attracted me to it early on. Yeah, and it every year is different and the challenges are different and the people are different, and uh, you know, yeah, but my uh my excitement for the sport is is not waned in the least, you know, which is good. So I mean, since I've got a I think I've got a good job and hopefully, you know, hopefully uh we'll keep on doing it for a few more years. So yeah, I'm not looking to make any changes at all.
SPEAKER_01If you could give one piece of advice to each of the following people, what would you say to a rower, to a coxswain, and to a coach?
SPEAKER_00Rowers, uh, I guess two things. One, don't let the Highs get too high and the lows get too low. So those days when you're like, oh, you had a good practice and you think like, oh man, I'm I'm doing it. Like I'm like the I'm the next like Olympic gold medalist, relax, chill. Like keep on getting better. Like in it, or those days when you just got your butt kicked or you're just feeling terrible, it's not as bad as you think. Okay, so just keep on. Yeah, don't get don't let the highs get too high and the lows get too low. And the other thing is be disciplined. Uh, you know, I think when I'm looking back on my own individual run career, like I wish I was more disciplined on certain things. So just that little bit of discipline goes a long way. Like I say, like the first step of being great is don't be bad. Eliminate the bad stuff, you know. Like in your diet, like, okay, you know, not all the bad stuff, but the worst stuff, you know, or certain things. Just like keep on leaving it, keep on eliminating the bad stuff or the worst stuff that you do, and you're gonna find yourself getting better and better. Words of advice for coxswains. Here's something for coxswains. One, uh, you don't need to talk so much. Just because you have the microphone doesn't mean you always have to be talking. Okay. And then with that, say what the coach says. Exactly what the coach says, you know, and that becomes frustrating. Um, and the coaches that I, you know, the coxswains that I coach, they learn that early on. It's like, hey, if I say, let's take five strokes for a stronger push with the legs, then the coxswain should say stronger push with the legs for five. Okay. That's you're saying the same thing. Don't say jump on it. Don't say quick legs, don't say faster with the legs, okay, because that's different. You know, so if the coxswain says something a little bit different and doesn't use the same language that the coach is using, then the cock, then the rowers might interpret it somewhat another different way. And now we start, then the whole coaching, then it turns into a game of telephone. Okay, so say exactly what the coach says. Don't try to put your own spin on things. That becomes really important so that you are so you are so you everyone is on the same page. And then advice for coaches every practice is important. Okay, every practice, uh, you can get your make sure the team is getting better every single practice, but don't let one practice ruin everything. And what I mean by that is, you know, there can be a day like it's super windy and rough, and it's like, oh, but we need to get this, we need to, well, we this practice is important. We need to get it in, we need to get this in. And all of a sudden, boat swamp, and now there's chaos, and now that can be a that could end the year, that could ruin a career. Or there's you know, a kid who's, hey, my back hurts a little bit, like, okay, well, we're doing this erg this afternoon. It's like, well, yeah, like, sure, that practice is important, but don't let, you know, like you have the kid erg that one afternoon, the kid might be out for two months. Okay, so ever even while every practice is important, get the team better at every practice, but don't let, yeah, don't let one incident, one practice, one erg workout, one conversation with the kid ruin everything. And I think I've become more and more mindful of that over the years, and I think gotten better at that, where this workout is not that important. You know, you doing this workout is not that important because I want to make sure that you can row next week. You know, your rib is hurt, your rib is starting to hurt, we're gonna shut you down for three days. So I want to make sure that you can row next week. Okay, or some kid who is having a hard time and you know, have you gonna have a difficult conversation with them, with you know, with him or her, and like don't you don't need to like turn it into some yelling fest where you're just trying to prove a point. Just you know, be cool. So, because some of those conversations can ruin the year or can even ruin a career if it could really go sideways. So that yeah, that's my advice for the cockswain, the rower, and the the coach. That makes all sense.