The Rowing Podcast
The Rowing Podcast
Nich Lee Parker
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A chat with Nich Lee Parker, easily one of rowing's best new trailblazers.
https://gocolumbialions.com/sports/lightweight-rowing/roster/coaches/nich-lee-parker/2786
Aren't you Dr. Parker now?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I know I am. Although I I don't really go by it, but yeah, it's yeah. It's like I can't I can't prescribe drugs, so I'm not a real doctor. Uh it does come in handy. It does come in handy every once in a while.
SPEAKER_02Right. Talk about a bunch of changes in Columbia recently. I mean, just in general. I I don't I I wasn't intending to do like a Columbia deep dive, but I feel like that's kind of on the horizon if uh some of the other coaches get back to me, but like wow. Um, how are things there right now? That I mean, I I'm pretty amped. I mean, I don't know about you, but I'm buying stock in Columbia rowing right now because things look things look very promising. So uh how are things at the boathouse and in the city?
SPEAKER_01Things at the boathouse are really great. Um, it is a transformative time. There's a lot of learning going on, there's a lot of conversations happening, there's a lot of seeing where our opportunities are, seeing what we can make happen soon, what we can do this year for the team, and what is gonna take a little bit longer and how we can work that within all three programs. So, overall, it's really good. It's fun to be exploratory. It's really fun to be creating things, especially with other great coaches and being able to have some pretty high-level conversations about what we think is gonna really be a positive impact for Columbia Rowing and really like the community around us as well. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Have you had, I mean, you know, it's it's not so much, he's not so much a new edition. I mean, he's been there for at least a year now. But um, with the addition of Tom and the boathouse, I mean, has it been fun to? I would imagine that there's probably been some brainstorming sessions or, you know, kind of going back and forth and talking about different ideas. Have there been any interesting conversations or things that have kind of gotten your uh your gears turned a bit in terms of trying some new things out or experimenting or you know, any of it really?
SPEAKER_01And I think the main thing has just been getting everyone from the three teams together and talking about a common vision, a common purpose, and what are we doing here? Why are we all rowing? How do we get there? Um, that has been kind of the main impact so far. And we're seeing that we're doing a bunch of speed order series on Saturdays where athletes from all three teams are rowing in small boats. We're putting up results as a percentage of world best time and just having a really good time racing. And so the vibe of the boathouse is very different. Yeah. Um, you know, and our women's four has put out the best to, you know, last weekend and just this past weekend, they've put out like the best times of anyone on the water, and that's been awesome. I think just the way we're seeing parity by creating a different environment that's really about performance and structured to help the athletes get there. That's been the biggest impact I've seen so far.
SPEAKER_02That sounds exciting. Uh so can you give us uh, you know, you know, you kind of give us some um, I guess some uh what's the right word for I guess like tactical uh look into kind of what that actually means, kind of the new cultural changes with like a the idea of kind of almost like a speed order, things like that. Um I love the percentage of world best time. I feel like that's such a great way to um just uh you know, I guess benchmark improvement over time and across the whole team or the whole program. Um culturally, philosophically, um what is the what does some of these um new focuses sound like? I mean, can you give us a sneak peek, if you will, into some of that?
SPEAKER_01I think the the biggest one that I can give you a sneak peek into is, you know, for so long we've pinched pennies into dollars in order to find a way to make it work. And it's really come at a at a pretty high cost for the staff. And now we're very, I think this is probably more strategically thinking about, you know, how can we set ourselves up so that the environment is one where coaches are doing more coaching, coaches are really getting to spend more time with student athletes and engaged on their goals, their specific processes that they need to get involved in. How do we get our support staff up and running? So um tactically, we're there's those things are coming. I can see that they're going to come, but really more of it is strategically looking at what do we need in order to perform well, what do we need to develop our athletes, and then how are we incrementally getting there? But you know, we're getting some new support on the strength side, and I think that is really valuable. Um, so little steps like that just to make sure that the athletes have everything they need to feel like, hey, I have everything I need so that when I get to the end of the year, I'm gonna be the best version of where I can be in this season. Yeah, like I can get there. And I think just knowing that you have those things and that you have those resources, that is a tidal wave of change.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, for sure. Are you are you um specific specific to your team experimenting with any new training modalities this year or um anything from nutrition to, you know, you mentioned weightlifting, things like that. Anything that you're kind of um taking through a process to see how what the results would be? Anything new that you're adding to the program?
SPEAKER_01I wouldn't say anything brand new, but we are really digging down into our use of critical power and how we're thinking about programming the overall year in terms of power, um more similar to what a cyclist would be doing and looking at where are the limits of that kind of evaluation, where are the limits of that testing, what kind of information are we getting out of it, what are the training impacts. So we're really ramping up our usage of power and how we're designing our overall structure. Um I wouldn't say that it's new, but it is new for us because we're doing some new analyses and we're getting a couple other people involved. We have a data sharing agreement for our team with a couple different departments in the university so that we can get their expertise compounded with you know what we're doing on our own and make sure that we have people who are really knowledgeable about some of these different areas come in and provide us their guidance and feedback so that we provide the best you know training for the team. So I think that's our biggest one that we're doing this year on just like the overall training side. And um, we're looking at like how we incorporate our strength coach. We want to make our strength coach more involved on a you know daily basis, and so that they're really having a high level of interaction with the coaches, with our athletic trainer, and we're communicating a little bit more because so much of the the things that I've seen stop athletes from reaching their performance goals have not just been okay, it's not they could do the squat, but before or after the workout, everything that needs to happen in order to be consistently performing at that level that was really missing. And I've found with a really skilled strength coach who really understands the needs of the sport and has a really developed background and they've done a lot of good work, they can provide that information, they can feed it in. Suddenly, athlete doesn't feel like, oh, I have to do these extra three workouts. It's okay, I'm gonna modify my warm-up every day, I'm covering all my bases. I'm not really adding time to my workout, I'm just using that time more effectively, looking at some very specific things that I know are issues for me. It's a shoulder mobility issue, it's a tightness through the hip. And so, what am I doing here? So we're trying to move in that direction and make it sustainable. We've we've made some good pushes in the past to do it, but um kind of pinching pennies into dollars, I referenced earlier, really hard to see it all the way through. Um, and I think we want to we want to move towards being more complete and more intentional from the coaching side as we're working with the team and exploring new ways we can improve performance.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, gotcha. You know, it's uh I've been out outside of coaching for a while now, but I think I feel like if I ever went back, one of the things I probably would uh drill down on is it's something that you're kind of alluding to, which is a much more personalized approach to certain uh certain training modalities. Like there's certain things you just can't really do much about, like urinates, everybody's doing the same workout by and large. But um, you know, things like you know, strength training. It's like there's a lot of uh I can I don't have another term for it, but like legacy knowledge or legacy approaches to you know getting stronger. Like it had there has to be the back squat, there has to be the bench press. It's like, you know, not really, you know, maybe the split squats better. Maybe this person should be doing an elevated heel because they don't really have the you know Achilles flexibility, you're just gonna hurt them. And like, so it doesn't really matter. Like just get it get outside of your head of we're not trying to be bodybuilders, you're not trying to just hit a big squat, you're trying to be functionally stronger and healthier. And you know what? If all you can do is this much weight, but you're better as an athlete, like cool. Like, stop comparing yourself to the strongest guy on the team. It really doesn't matter if you're trying to be the best row. Um, but it was it was hard. I mean, you know, I'm I'm guilty of that too as an athlete. It's hard to break out of that mentality because you're always competing and you're like, oh, I want to put another five pounds on you. Like, yeah, but like your back's gonna hurt next week, and then you're gonna have a bad test, and it cascades into oh, you you blew a rib because you've been twisting weird for the rest of the season on the seat to compensate for your back. And it's just like, oh, you know, the the cascading impact or greater impact of those little details you're referring to, I'm I'm a really big fan of now. Um, so need more of it. Makes such a big difference.
SPEAKER_01And for for any rower, if you are a rower who doesn't need a heel weld, heel wedge while you're back squatting, you are a rare bird. And that's okay, that's great for you. But most of us, if we're built for rowing and we've been really engaging our flexibility, our limb length, our levers, we're gonna need a heel wedge. And so, like that's a really good tactical example of something we're implementing to say, okay, let's get this in, let's make sure we've got the right setup so that as you progress, you're really getting all the benefit of doing the work. Because everyone, if you're a rower, you're gonna work hard. Like everybody's hardworking. I think that's it. So let's work hard and let's really try to make that hard work get the most paying for our body.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, 100%. We could probably, you know, I I had a feeling getting you on the on the podcast, we could probably nerd out about this for like honesty hours because this was so so my wheelhouse when I was a coach. I love talking about this stuff. But uh, I want to make this a bit more about you, so I'm gonna pivot a bit. But uh maybe next time. If we I'll have a technical podcast where it's like five hours of just nerding out over this stuff, people will be like, Jesus. But uh threatening me with a good time, I am down. I'm not that far. I mean, Pittsburgh and New York, it's a bit of a it's a bit of a hike, but I'm I'm planning on being out there, so maybe I will come out and uh take you up on that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I grew up in Missouri. Um I went to school on the outskirts of St. Louis, but spent a lot of time whenever we weren't in school at uh family places out in the country or in the Ozarks. So most of my childhood memories, I actually think about the Ozarks and the mountains and being out in a field at my grandparents' house and like the horses and pigs. Uh but I I did go to school outside of St. Louis, so I more think of uh Missouri as my hometownslash state. So a lot of my extended family are in the farming industry. Uncle Wally grows a lot of grass seed, and we've got people doing other things. Um, but my parents, uh my mom was a nurse, and my dad was retired military, and then he went into education. Gotcha. Um so but you know, my dad was teaching, and my mom was running the post-anesthesia care unit at a hospital. So we had a pretty um a pretty down-to-earth uh upbringing that in hindsight I'm really grateful for and really appreciative of.
SPEAKER_02Gotcha. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's a funny thing just to sidebar. I feel like I always noticed, but it seems like you've got a pretty solid veteran contingent on your team or relatively relatively consistent that I always thought was pretty cool. I always felt like I saw a couple of guys in the roster that were uh you know ex-military that had come back to school that were also rowing on the team. I always felt like that was probably such an interesting addition to the squad. Um, do you have any guys now?
SPEAKER_01We don't have any guys right now. Our last one graduated. Um, but you know, there's a guy who just walked on to the heavyweight team. So I think there's there's some opportunity uh there to get that back. But these athletes have been a huge influence, not just on the team, but also on me. Um, been able to have conversations about their experiences, and a lot of them, you know, served at a time when uh there were active deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, and so they have lived in a way that so many of us have not. And it was really important for the team to make friends with people who had seen the world in a different way and were able to have a different conversation, and it really put things into perspective. And, you know, when the when that athlete can tell the team, hey guys, we need to take a step back and really see the forest of the trees here, that's a really powerful thing. And um, you know, there's there's a few guys who have come through and provided that at different levels, and that has just been an incredible positive for the team overall. And I think one of the benefits of Columbia is a school of general studies. So even if we don't have those students on the team, there are a lot of military vets on campus who are really active and they're open about their experience and they're talking about it, and those people have so much to add and so much value they bring to the campus community. Oh, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_02I I would imagine that um, yeah, when when those folks speak, a lot of folks probably tend to listen. Um I think that's probably right. Yeah. Um, how are they generally? I would assume they're generally older. I mean, if they spent a few years in service, are they coming in in like their early 20s?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they are coming in usually um early to mid-20s, sometimes even a little bit longer, um, depending on how long they serve. So they have a they have a little bit more experience. You know, I like to remind everyone that for the most part, as those um athletes are just students are entering, you know, most of their prefrontal cortex is developed, so they've actually got a fully formed brain. Um and they do approach the world a little bit differently.
SPEAKER_02What about uh so back to you a bit? Any any siblings? Uh are you I don't I'm not actually sure if you if you're if you're married at the at the moment, or I know that you have a pet. You had a really cool dog when I used we used to race against you with the lightweights, and I was always like, oh yeah, um, what's all that about?
SPEAKER_01Uh Stuart is 12 and a half, the miniature schnauzer. He doesn't have any teeth anymore, but he's still pretty awesome and plays like a puppy. Um I've got an older brother who's nine years older, lives in Chicago. Um, four uh children, all boys. The middle ones are identical twins, and they are a handful and a lot of fun. Um and the oldest actually came out to the IRA this year, is like, you know, first trip out, like trip out with dad, get to see Uncle Nick, get to watch boat racing. Uh it was so awesome to have him there for the IRA. So that was really fun. Um, and then I have a younger sister who's a really brilliant IO psychologist. She works at Pepsi, where she's the global head of talent assessment, and every conversation I have with her reminds me that I can learn more and I can do more. So she is really the impressive one of the bunch.
SPEAKER_02Love it. Gotcha. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it sounds like you have a lot of very you strike me as somebody who's kind of a sponge for anything, not even academic necessarily, but I mean, you know, with these those kind of influences around you, I'm not surprised that there's a really interesting um, I guess, uh, recipe at Columbia Lightweight Rowing with that, you know, coming to you. So um, how did you get in how did you actually get into rowing? I mean, what's the you know, what's the genesis of that for you and what hooked you?
SPEAKER_01Um some people may know this, but I went to the Ohio State University uh to be a symphony musician. Oh um, I played the bassoon, I love music, and the person who, you know, my instructor, I was playing with this symphony musician, learning from her, and she was like, you know, if you really want to be a great player, you should go study with this professor named Christopher Wheat at Ohio State. And so I went off. You know, and music auditions are like what we wish athletic auditions could be like. I mean, you go, you take a lesson, like you're performing for the professor, they're giving you feedback, they're working with you, they're seeing how fast you can learn and pick up on things, and then they make a decision on whether they're gonna accept you as a student or not. So it is pretty high pressure. And I looked at it a lot, I auditioned at a few places, but I thought I played once with this guy, and his feedback was just so I knew it was right, and I really liked the way he just conveyed the information to me. It wasn't like, oh, you're bad, it was like, oh, here's what I'm hearing, and it was a really great conversation. So I went to Ohio State to study with him. I wanted musicians, when you're a student, a music major, you practice. You practice, you practice some more, and then you practice more. Um, it is just the amount of practice you need is incredible, um, which is that's something we can talk about as we get into it. But one of the things I wanted to do is I was like, I need a break from practice. And so I walked onto the rowing team, club team, you know, walked through campus, saw, you know, they had like a stick out, like if you're taller than this, and I was, and talked to them, and I was like, great, this is two hours of my afternoon. The club had a boathouse facility right on campus, so it wasn't like we had to travel anywhere at that time. And I was like, two hours of my afternoon, I can go be physically active, and I don't have to be in a practice room, and I can have like a structured escape and it's an activity. That was how I got into it. Um, I just I said this is I'm gonna go do this. But it really it really took off because in our one of our first you know walk-on meetings, there's you know 120, 130 people sitting there, and as they're kind of talking through us to us about everything that's gonna happen and what the sport is and kind of giving us a general overview. Our head coach Peter Steenster, who people may know at Bates right now, um, was coaching the club there, and he just he stood up and said a few things, but the important part was he said, and that's really important to everyone here. Like, I don't care if you're a man, a woman, black, white, gay, or straight. In here, we make boats go fast. That's what we are here to do. Um, and so having grown up in Missouri, which was a pretty tough spot to be, um, that was the first time in my life I ever was like, I'm safe. Yeah, I know I'm safe. This man would would gut step between me and anybody who wanted to harm me for being gay, and I know it. And it was an overwhelming sense of calm. Um, and that is one of the things that made the boathouse a really special place for me. I mean, that's one of the reasons I kept going back. It was like, oh, I can push myself here, I can fail here, and I felt like it was okay to do that. Um, so that was kind of one of the ways it wasn't just how I got into it. I was trying to find this escape just to keep myself sane, but then I got this, you know, secret message of hey, like this is an inclusive space. This is a space where we're about one thing and leave all the other baggage of the world at the door. Yeah. And that was awesome.
SPEAKER_02I like that. No, no, no. That was it's funny. I actually had a uh I I used to have a you may you may do the same thing, but I used to have that that speech usually happened within the first day or two of uh coaching the freshman, um, no matter where I was. And that was that was always a really important thing for me, obviously. The calm I think that that provides and the the level of kind of trust of the people around you uh is pretty special, I think, that when um when that can be laid out quickly and directly and early. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01I think that's one of the things that coaches we we have a duty to provide that for everyone. And it's not just like for me, that was a big element because I was gay, but even if it was something else, I would have realized, hey, right, you know, I have a couple other things that I am struggling with, and here they don't like they're a part of me, but I'm not going to be judged for them. And I think because it was it was a blanket statement that really captured this overall idea of like here's what we're doing here, and whatever part of you that you have to like work with or bring, okay, like that's fine. Go ahead. Nice. Um, do you still keep in touch with that coach? Absolutely. Peter and I just texted last week, you know. Um, we talk uh every bit, and you know, we try to get together. Uh you know, Peter and Jesse Foley and I try to get together once a year and just have a dinner and like catch up and talk, and that's a pretty fun time. Awesome. Those are both two two really great people who I admire in the sport for so many different reasons and so many of the same reasons, but um getting keeping in touch with him is a pretty important part of me and rowing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was just doing these days. I haven't caught up with him in a long time. We had a little bit of crossover uh because we both were you know lightweight coaches, and eventually we technically were we were you know directly competing with Harvard and UW, but uh I haven't really caught up with him in a while. How's he doing?
SPEAKER_01He's doing well. Like we got to get a bit of a chance to catch up in the Czech Republic and like before we were talking. But uh, you know, I think he'd be a great person to see if you can get on the podcast and and ask him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I should but he's he's got some good insight. I'll shoot him a text. I'll definitely do that. We have we've had plenty of texts back and forth about different recruits and stuff like that. Um so uh so I'm kind of curious was this was this environmental? Environment, uh, you know, at the boathouse, was this counter to the environment that you felt in music? Or was this just kind of a you know a different animal in terms of the type of you know activity were you doing? Like, you know, obviously you got into rowing and you got into coaching very seriously, and it's kind of become your passion from what I can see. And not that music, I guess, probably isn't a part of your life, but it clearly isn't as much anymore. Did you trade one for the other? Or did you eventually make the decision, you know, I think I feel more at home at the boathouse than I do, you know, in a music hall? What was that like? Well what gave it away?
SPEAKER_01Um Yeah, look, I really enjoy playing, and I have some of my fondest memories playing music and creating music, and I think it's a really special thing to be able to do. Um, but like in my you know experience, like music world is tough. Um and it can be it can be really hard. And there were aspects of it that I just didn't enjoy. Um you have to really be, and I think I and I say this without any you know sense of of a negative implication, you have to really be self-centered in order to be engaged with yourself enough to become good enough to make it. Um you really have to be it has to be about you. You have to be selfish. No, I'm not gonna go see my friends, no, I'm gonna practice, I'm gonna practice, you know, and while there is a space in there for some balance, you know, like the in order to really reach high levels of performance, you know, the kind of performance that you can produce on command in a concert hall, it just takes time. It takes a lot of time and practice. And I found that I just didn't I was okay with the practice time, but the alone time wasn't for me. And I you know, I would even say I'm a bit more introverted, but I I found that it wasn't gonna be a healthy environment for me long term. I felt like I would shrink away from the world, and I didn't I didn't like who I thought that would make me become, but I I had learned all this practicing, like how to practice. And one of the great things about my professor was he was a really skilled technician, and he was really skilled at helping people learn how to perform and learn how to play, learn how to figure out complex passages, play really hard um pieces of music. And so practicing was something I really liked. And I, as I made that transfer and I was rowing more and I was really enjoying it, I was just like, man, I feel like sports has so much to learn from music and how people practice, how people think about practice, the way we're structuring practice. Um, and so that was kind of the beginning of that transition. And I was like, I wonder if I could like take some of what I've learned here and now explore more about what's going on in sports um and figure out how to actually learn better, not just only for myself, but maybe for others. Um and I didn't quite know exactly where that was gonna take me at first. I figured I would I would coach for a couple years and I was gonna go to grad school, and which I did, and I was like, and then I was gonna re-evaluate. I'll do it for a year or two, re-evaluate, see if I'm really enjoying coaching, um, or if I want to pursue a different path. Because I had a couple different options that I was thinking about at the time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Can you, you know, can you think of any, you were talking about some things that um sports can learn from uh music in terms of how to prepare, how to sharpen up. Can you give uh like a really good tactile example?
SPEAKER_01I think one of the easy ones that we already use in rowing, but that we could actually use more, um, is like reverse ratio work in order to kind of really learn various aspects of the stroke and controlling what's happening on the blade. When you're really learning a complex piece of music, you know, even if the the music is written one way, but you play it with multiple different rhythmic patterns in order to learn how to get the fingers to move from one key set to another. Um and so you're going back and forth. And so, you know, you may have a piece of music that sounds one way, but when you're practicing it, you're practicing with eight, nine, ten different variations. Um but that's exactly what we're doing when we say, okay, we're gonna go reverse ratio, we're gonna try other, you know, little impacts. So one of the things I really like working in rowing is saying, okay, we're gonna we're gonna give an extra squeeze here, or we're gonna give a strong push here, or we're gonna be light here and stronger here, and we're just trying to change the intensity of our force application in a very similar way to the way we would do that, changing rhythms. Um and you know, you could you can also do we would practice uh passages, play it really soft, play it really loud, play fast music really soft. And that is hard to play something very, very fast, very, very quiet, that takes a lot of skill, and so you have to learn a subtleness, a deafness of control as a musician, and that's really what we're trying to teach for high-level rowing. We're trying to let tell someone or give someone the opportunity to figure out okay, how can I go as hard as I can, but not disturb the boat at all. Yeah, and that like that is really what you're also trying to do in music. You're trying to like play this perfectly and try to get around it. You can't get in its way, you're kind of letting it emerge, right? And um, when I think about when I think about playing a really good piece of music, um, I often think about okay, I I have all these extra things around this concept, and my goal in practice is to chip away and kind of reveal the final form. It's not that I'm adding things to get to the final form, it's that I'm trying to take all the extra stuff that's getting in the way of its true essence out. And that's the same way I've ended up looking at music. Like rather than saying, okay, let me add these things in, let me look at how we're training, how we're working on the technical work, and let me see what are the things that I can pull away and still get the impact. And if I can pull away most of those extraneous bits, I found that it's really enjoyable to row and it's also very fast.
SPEAKER_02So not to be not to lay it on too thick, but it almost sounds like you think about uh the the dynamics of rowing almost like the dynamics of music. Very much so.
SPEAKER_01But I think that's also that's a that is a I'm a product of my training, right? And so I think for other coaches, they're going to look at rowing according to how they've been educated, what they've studied, what they've really poured themselves into. And you know, music was really one of my first foundations where I got to really study something at a high level and be pushed and challenged really, really hard. Um, you know, playing for this professor was tough. It I mean, you went in and every week you had a private lesson for an hour and you had to be able to perform. You know, think of it like taking a 2K test every week. Um it you were constantly being challenged and you had to learn how to deal with it and grow, and it was a pretty complex process. I think that's one of the reasons I really I enjoyed the learning aspect of it. Um and one of the reasons I saw that there's so many similarities to sport if we can find ways to really interact between the two uh the two kind of theories. Yeah, got it. You still play? It sounds like you do. I do not play right now. You know, bassoon is one of the instruments that's pretty complicated to play. So uh the biggest part is make you have to make your own reads. And so if I want to start playing again right now, it would be a a solid six to eight week process before I could even start playing. Wow. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_02What what does that mean? What you were just saying? I don't even I'm not sure that even uh under the word you just said.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah. So the the reeds on which you play are a double read, so you have to order the cane from there's uh and everybody as you start to play, you learn that, oh, I like cane from this region, and I want it to be harvested at this time, and I want you want very specific, right? There's 200 types of cane that people will make reeds from, and you start to learn, oh, this is what I want to play on, like, right? I want Chris lead cane, and I want it to come from southern China, and I know where I want it to be from. Um, so you get to that air aspect, but then you get the cane, and then you have to soak it, you have to gouge it, you have to shape it, create a profile. And these are all steps that sometimes take uh a number of weeks for the cane to be basically transformed from a piece of cane into a reed that you can then attach to the instrument and play. Oh my god. Wow. That's you're you it's a bit of a craft, it's half craftsmanship, half playing. Two most dangerous words in the English language. Good what is it again? Uh good enough?
SPEAKER_02Is that what he says in the movie? Good job. Good job. Good good job. I uh I've my brother keeps texting me, telling me like you should totally see that movie, you're totally gonna relate to it. And I was like, uh, I've never actually sat down and committed. I don't know how realistic some of that is.
SPEAKER_01It should. I think in in some in some schools of music, it it is there are it is that cutthroat. It can be pretty tough. I can't that was not my experience uh with my professor. I think I had a very different environment, but I do know of friends where it was really challenging and it was really tough. Um so I think that there are some elements to that, but I think there are also elements to that movie just about coaching and what's our role as coaches, and you know there's a lot of kind of philosophical questions being asked in that film about teaching and education and leadership and trust. Yeah. Um I think there are there's some re they are really important questions, and you know, I think there was I I believe that the the lessons learned from people who have watched that movie and really thought about it are have come through in a way of okay, well, what kind of environment do I want to be in? And is there a way to be high performing without being you know pr pretty malicious or um and and I think the answer is yes, but it's difficult. Like it's it's easy to just press people really hard and get a quick instantaneous bump in performance and whether it's athletics, music, or really anything, but that is short-lived and it it didn't really it prevents the person from really tapping into their like intrinsic motivation and like that joy of performing really well. So there's a short-lived and dangerous game to play.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I agree. I feel like there's definitely a there's a conversation about a fine balance with uh with the um instructor's approach in that movie. Again, I've seen I've seen bits and pieces, I've seen clips of it, you know, stuff my brother sent me. I will now commit to actually doing it. But um, I know there's that one scene early on where uh the main character, the protagonist, is sitting there on the on it at its at the drums, and he's kind of practicing alone and the I think he's in the school or something, and uh, you know, the instructor walks in and is like, hey, you know, what are you doing? And like there's just a tone that he took of like, okay, play this, play this. And he's like, Why did you do why did you stop playing? I was listening to you. But there's just there's like a very significant switch from we're not you're not just playing anymore. Like this is really high focused. You're trying to make the best performance possible. Like I'm not screwing around. So if you want to be on that level, right, that's what we're doing. Otherwise, I'm gonna leave the room. And that's and yeah, there's something to be said for that. I and again, even that tone alone is enough sometimes. Completely. And in some ways, I actually think it's hard to leave once once you've been around people like that and you've kind of been pushed to that level. I feel like it's hard to actually step away from it because you realize how much positive, like how much good you can produce out of something like that, and the kind of the performances that can come from that kind of just the mentality is really what I'm talking about. Um very much so.
SPEAKER_01I think that was one of the things I experienced at Ohio State when I joined like the club, and I had four years of rowing in a really incredible environment, and kind of one of the false equivalencies that I made was that this is how all rowing is. This is how rowing is everywhere, and I just didn't know that rowing was not like that everywhere. Um, rowing was not as inclusive, rowing was not as I'm going to my role as a coach is to get you to bend but not break. My role is to push you to grow and explore and like figure out new levels of performance without ever harming you. And my my like and that that is not that is not it was not as common. Uh and that was a kind of a rude reigning when I left Ohio State to kind of see, oh, like this really intricate level of care where coaches really care about the people, and they because of that, they're able to coach and push you and get you to hit new levels of performance. Uh I was really unaware that that wasn't all of rowing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It was very very naive of me.
SPEAKER_02But should be. When I was, I think a freshman or a sophomore, I think I was a sophomore in college. And there was a guy on the team that I had known from my freshman year, his name was Sal. And I he had rode 2V-ish, 3V, you know, Todd ran a pretty intense program with the lightweights at that point. That's the team I was part of. And um, I remember he he quit for a year or something. Like I remember everybody knew who he was. He was a good guy, you know, he was funny, people kind of liked him around, but he he left the team for like an extended period of time. And then I remember one of the days that I was in the in the slider room or something, like sophomore, you're just like working out, trying to get like an extra, some extra myelogen or something. And Stell pops in. And Stell had put on a lot of weight from like when he was when he was rowing. And he pops in and jumps in the machine. I'm like, hey, what's going on, man? And he's just like, he's like, hey, what's going on? I'm doing three by 20. And he just starts rowing. And eventually, you know, I talk to him maybe either immediately after a few days later, I'm like, I are you coming back? Like, you know, I heard that you decided that you didn't really want to row anymore. And he's like, Matt, there's something about being in an environment like this. Once you've been here, it's really hard to go down. I was like, interesting. And like that has kind of stuck with me a really, really long time. But he was talking about like the competitive environment, just that you're you're pushing yourself to now a level of excellence that really is pretty rarefied air, that doesn't exist in a lot of ways and isn't easy to do and isn't common. And it that's not to say folks who aren't doing that are any less. It's just like that's just it's just not what they're doing necessarily, or it doesn't fit with whatever whatever they're doing. But once it's kind of you've kind of been in that uh in that ring, it's hard to step out. Um, and it always stuck stuck with me.
SPEAKER_01Um that is uh in my mind, that is the primary purpose of why rowing exists in our collegiate institutions. Yeah. Yeah. It is to create an environment and and people have experienced that and they're like, oh, this was really valuable. I'm getting one type of education in my coursework. I'm learning how to do many different things, I'm learning how to do them at a really high level. But in this thing of rowing, I like the idea of rarefied air, I am really learning something down to like the granularity with which we're trying to perfect this is absurd. I mean, it's just such a high level. And working for that and being with a group of people who are trying to achieve that, like that is so much fun. Um, and it's hard. It's it's fun because it's hard. It's fun because like finding a success after maybe weeks of you know, really struggling is it brings uh real joy to it. Um, you know, when someone makes a breakthrough on something technical they've been working on for a long time, they get a PR after stagnating for six months. Like those things are really special and we learn a lot by it. I think that's one of the reasons there's such a strong culture around rowing and the university system in our country. Yeah, for sure, man.
SPEAKER_02Um, well, I'm I'm going to to pivot. Actually, before I do pivot for a moment, you said you you mentioned a few times that you are an alumnus of the Ohio State. I believe that two other people that I've crossed paths with uh also were. Did you know andor row with either Patrick Schulkers or Volpenheim?
SPEAKER_01Uh both of those guys left just before I arrived, but I did get to know both of them while I was there. Um Volp uh would come around and hang out with the team every once in a while. He went for a few rows with us, which was really fun. Um, we had a particularly awesome row on a Saturday morning where it had snowed in late February when it was a really wet snow. So the Olin Tanji River on campus up in the top 1K was maybe two boats wide. I mean it was pretty narrow, but the trees arched over the river, and because it was such a wet snow, it had just blanketed. So we were rowing through a snow tunnel, and Volp was there for that row. Um, and it was just a really fun time. So I didn't get to row with those guys, but I did get to meet them and have been in touch with them ever since. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02If your closest friends could describe you only using three words, meaning three distinct adjectives, which words do you hope that they would use for you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the words they would actually use versus the words I hope they would use. So the word the words yeah, the words I hope they would use are intentional, authentic, purposeful. Those are the words I would hope they would use. Gotcha. Uh well, do you what words do you think they would use? That's a good question. I think we'll like that's what I'm gonna find out next time we go hang out at the bar.
SPEAKER_02Okay, fair. What do you feel that drives you and motivates you? You know, obviously you've earned a um, I believe it's a PhD in biomechanics. Um help me if I'm off on that, but I feel like it's in that realm.
SPEAKER_01It's uh that's in like the the major group, it's in biobehavioral sciences, but uh my specific focus is on neuroscience and motor control. Gotcha. So looking at how the brain controls movement. Um, but biomechanics was a very big part of my degree.
SPEAKER_02Got it. Um obviously you're passionate about the sport in a very I what I feel like is a very technical, scientific, but obviously musical way at the same time. It's a very interesting blend. But you know, what do you feel like motivates you to get down there and you know move the needle every day?
SPEAKER_01Um I really love getting to work with athletes. Like I love creating that space where the athlete grows from who they are into who they can become. And I never know who that who they're going to become. I I don't know what that is. And one of the things I talk a lot about the team is like we all need to know our role. And my job is to create this environment where you as the athlete, you get to go from who you are into who you can become. And importantly, I don't tell you who that is, I don't necessarily tell you how that's going to happen, what it's going to look like, but it's to create a space for every athlete to take that journey. And when I'm watching the young men and women on our team go through that, that is encouraging because just the growth that they have and the shared experiences that they have, I genuinely believe that that's gonna help them thrive down the road in the future. And that is something that really that really keeps me going. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02Have you had any uh do you are you able to still stay in touch with some of your former athletes? Do you ever get a chance to talk to them and see how life is and how for sure? For sure.
SPEAKER_01Like there's there's a the and you know, one of the great parts about being in New York City is that a lot of them are here in New York City. And so, you know, randomly on a Friday night, you know, I'll be sitting at home thinking, okay, I've got to get ready because you know, practice the next morning, and someone's like, Hey, we're walking live by, you know, like we're walking in your neighborhood. Are you around? And people will stop in and hang out for an hour and then they'll move on with their night. So there is a lot of that that happens. So I think getting to stay in touch with them just being based in New York, it is really awesome. Getting to see them kind of grow and like become adults, and um, especially for the guys who were there, like in my transition from assistant coach to head coach. It was just, you know, you have a relationship with athletes when you're an assistant coach, and you have a different relationship when you're a head coach. And so we kind of all went through that transformation together. Um, and and those are people who I can always rely on to talk to. They they they know a version of me as an assistant coach, and where you get to be, I think, a little bit more personal, and they know a version of me that was a head coach that was trying to elevate things, and so they have a broad range of of experience and understanding who I am and what I'm trying to do. And so being near that that group of athletes is really incredible still. Do you have any that uh have gone on to be coaches? We have a few guys who um have experimented with coaching for a while. You know, Jeff Monahan coached uh at Dartmouth for a while, Dave Vatola was down with the Georgetown lightweights um for a bit. We uh so there are a few guys who are around and coaching. Um and then there are other guys who are working professionally, but they're you know, they're not coaching full-time, but they have found a way to get involved wherever they were. Um a guy who graduated a few years ago, Lucas, um, was coaching down in Austin, you know, where he was also working in a tech job. So he was, you know, coaching may not be his full-time profession, but he was very much involved in.
SPEAKER_02Actually, you just hired a I don't really think I ever got to coach Thomas Wank that much. Uh has Thomas settled in yet? I feel like I've just heard news about this at some point.
SPEAKER_01Thomas is Thomas has settled in and is off to the races. So we have been working as fast as we possibly can to get stuff up and running. Um, you know, all coaching transitions are always uh a big step. Thomas knows how to how to work hard and works smart and is bringing some new things like to the program that are really helpful for me. So that has been really great to get him on board and up and going.
SPEAKER_02I know it's kind of like trade secrets amongst coaches and what have you. So you probably can't tell me too much or wouldn't want to, but can uh what are one of the things you think is bringing to the table?
SPEAKER_01I think look, anybody who's I have so much respect for what happens at the University of Washington. There is a system where people learn how to perform. There's a different culture, there's a different standard. Um I know that I know very little about it, but I know that it has been able to produce a lot of great athletes and great teams over the years. And so kind of having his inside knowledge and experience of what that was like, it's really great to get some information feeding back into our team about hey, how can we elevate our performance? How can we create a culture that is really healthy and it's not toxic, but is really geared towards high performance. And, you know, I think being able to mix and match ideas and seeing, you know, which ones are going to work with our students and within like the system that we have is been really good. And he's brought a lot of that knowledge, and we've been able to have a lot of good conversations about where the team's going. And that is filtered into everything that is happening big picture with Columbia Rowing and working with all the other coaches. Sweet, man.
SPEAKER_02Awesome. Well, best of luck to him and well, to both of you, obviously. For you, on the day of a major performance like uh how do you prepare and focus yourself in a way that might be, I don't know, I think kind of unique again with your music background. I'd be curious to see how you think about you know your mentality and your actions and your kind of habits on the day. What does that look like for you? Whew.
SPEAKER_01Um it looks like any other day, which may sound boring, but you know, what that is that is the reality of it. Um one of the here, but here's one of the things that I that I do try to remind everyone of on our team, and which is that as you become more of an expert within your within your field, no matter what it is, you need longer to warm up and to prepare. And so one of the things that I've just found over the years is, you know, when I was a younger coach, I would kind of wake up, have a coffee, and I'm then I'm just there getting ready to go. I think as I've learned more and I've tried to think more about like how do I really help the team, I get up earlier, I I move a little bit slower, I run through all the logistics for the day. Um, but I'm not just doing that before a daily practice. I'm doing that more frequently now. Like I'm I'm getting up earlier, I'm reading through the practice plan before I leave over a morning coffee. I'll take the time in the morning to like have a good breakfast and make sure that I'm ready for practice and engaged. And so that is happening on a daily basis. Like my routine is changing over time, and so on race day, that is exactly what I continue to do. Got it, love it. Who is somebody that you admire in rowing and why? Denise Aquino, first and foremost. I got to know Denise when she was working at Row New York, and I saw how she was working within the community here and how she was a really good advocate for voices that hadn't had a voice in rowing. You know, um, she has a podcast, Rowing in Color, um, along with Patricia, and I love the way that they talk about what rowing can be, and they are really upfront about the the challenges rowing faces. Um and then so Denise is one of the people who just over the years I continue to be so impressed by. Um, not from a right, you know, we're not talking about oh, the highest levels of performance standard and rowing and we're breaking records on a 2K. We're talking very specifically about like what's the community and culture that we want to have so that we're creating the environment for all these athletes who want to participate to develop and perform at the highest levels possible. And she's just um a really brilliant mind who I've gotten to know and admire a ton. Favorite place to row or race and why? I think a lot your favorite place to row has a lot to do with the weather at the time, you know. So rowing in Chula Vista in January is great. I love it. Like, you know, the it's maybe a little windy up until 7 a.m. and then it's basically flat for the next four, four and a half hours. And so that is truly one of my favorite places to row because I just feel like you can get so much done and you can really focus on the rowing. Like the outside distractions are such are so minimal. Um and the one of my favorite places to race are, you know, I spend a year living in Germany and going to all these small town races, um, some of which I went and raced myself, some of which, you know, some people from our boathouse were going, and I was just like there, just like loving it. Um racing through old, small courses in Europe was so much fun. So I would have to say, you know, there's I couldn't even pick out a single one, but there are so many great little towns with race courses and old storied races that they're not huge regattas, but they're really fun and they're connected to the community in a really cool way. So those are some of my favorite places to go race.
SPEAKER_02I know that um something that always struck me about some of the European uh races is what what you're kind of alluding to is there's different distances. Like there's sprints races, there's long races, there's bumps. I love the fact that that there's like a proliferation of of that type of approach to the sport now with like ocean racing. I'm like, oh, please, let's do more of that. That's like believe me, I'm you know, I'm down for the bread and butter of the 2K and the 6K and all that. But at the same time, you know, Mike was trying to do sprints races at UW when I was leaving there. I hope that that's still a thing. Uh, like that that is a good thing. I think that would get more people involved in the sport. Like it'd be very interesting if it would start becoming distances versus just boat classes and suddenly like who's the fastest hundred meter rower, who's the fastest 500-meter rower? What kind of athlete would that produce? Are they bigger? Do they have bigger oars? What's the setup of the, you know, I mean, that just gets my mind turning like crazy. I think that'd be very fun if we could get more of that and popularize it more.
SPEAKER_01A lot of that happening over there for sure. The like the German Sprint League is pretty fun to go watch. Like it's it is entertaining.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And you could, it's small enough that you could have probably a social get together around it, like, and it'd be easier than making it over 2K, I would imagine, for most people in a in a town. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, favorite rowing drills or drill?
SPEAKER_01Uh, you know, we do a lot of rowing just with like the blade skimming, and so that you're always getting feedback. Like you're there's no there's no tap down, you're just pulling all the way through and then feathering and maintaining connection with the water and doing the same thing on the front. I mean, everybody looks at us, I know, and looks at our front end and goes, what's going on there? Uh, but that is one of the ways where we do it. And a lot of it is, you know, don't fight the water, like learn how to move with the water. Um, and try to, you know, I think that's a re so for us, that is one of the things I really enjoy doing. And I think it's it's one of my favorites because you get so much feedback through the blade. Like, if you as a rower can learn to pay attention to what's happening on the blade, like, I mean, that's like your leverage point, right? That's like your wing. Um, so if you can really pay attention to what's happening there and you can develop a really good feel for how the water is moving around the blade, especially at the extraction point and entry point, I think it's gonna give you a leg up no matter what you're doing or how you're rowing. Yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_02Um yes, the Jim Joy catch. Not to, I don't know if that's actually, but that's pretty much it, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01It is Jimmy Jimmy coached me a couple summers after I was out of college, and um, that was some of the most intense coaching I've ever received. It was it was tough, you know, it was really tough, and I loved it. Um, you know, being challenged, I think, for any athlete who like wants to get better is great. But Jimmy was a really good technician and pushed me to learn, and most importantly, never told me something that I could figure out. Created a space where I would have to learn it. And I knew that. I knew I could figure it out, and he would give me just enough encouragement and just enough pointers to let me figure it out, but I knew that it was mine and the sense of accomplishment and ownership of that, like once I did figure something out, like that was really exciting. So um, I learned a lot from running for Jimmy, you know, just for uh a couple summers.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, it's been I think I I've never done it. I don't really know how to do it. Uh, but I think uh Paul Bugenhagen was a guy who was very nearby. He was they were over on Lake Geneva, so they're only like a very short drive. And he tried to explain it to Chris and I at one point. I don't know if Chris has ever experimented with it, Chris Kerber. Um, but it's kind of the idea of like if if you miss water, you you know, with a with a traditional quotations, traditional catch, you miss water like up. But if you miss water in with this, like you actually lock on sooner. It's not to like that would be like the the bad end of it, but it seems like it's you're kind of like splicing the water directionally and the blade almost squares up in the water and locks faster. Um, I don't really know if that's if I'm describing it well, but it seems very interesting. Uh I I'm curious how much uh we waste with the traditional catch versus what you're using there uh at Columbia. Yeah, I don't know if you want to expand on that anymore, but it's it's uh it's always kind of good.
SPEAKER_01No, no, I think I think uh I think I'll leave that one for for us to figure out. We are having a really good time with that over here, and we're trying to answer some of those questions ourselves. Um I wouldn't say that we have it all figured out. We are just like I said, I think from the beginning, like we're always experimenting, and we found a way to make this work really well for this group of athletes, and I think honestly, very specifically for lightweight rowing, where there are so many things that are equal amongst the teams that you've got to find a way to get an advantage, right? You need to find where I can have an advantage relative to my peers. Got it. And like this is one of the things where I feel like if we when we do it well, it's great. But like all things, when we don't do it well, it hurts you, right? It's not like oh, it's it's neutral or good. It's it can be new, it can be neutral, it can be good, or it can be bad. It can have a negative impact if it's not done well. And I think that's those are generally speaking all kind of like technical things that we're working on. Got it.
SPEAKER_02Cool, man. Well, for anybody who wants to know more, Nick will send you an NDA uh and then he can tell you more about it. Um do you have a favorite workout?
SPEAKER_01When we're training in the winter, I love one that's it's an old Ed McNeely workout that came down through. It's just a 32-minute um piece alternating every four minutes between 24 and 28. You can only push your overall split down at the 24. So you're working low, you're resting high. And we do some different versions of this, but that specific one continues to really throw people for a loop. I mean, it is tough. Like that rate shift down from 28 to 24 when you know you gotta like grind on it and put the work in. It is it is a test in and of itself. Um, and the three times where you see people making that shift down to 28, I mean, just the look on the face of people getting ready for it, preparing for it. I think that's that is what we're always doing when we line up for a race. And so to get three of those true moments like that in a single piece, pretty incredible.
SPEAKER_02So are you trying to so tell me a little bit more about that? If I was trying to hold like, I'm gonna make a number up. Let's say I'm trying to hold 150 at 28. Am I trying to hold 150 at 24 or try to go fast? Like, what does that look like?
SPEAKER_01Or you could hold 150 at 24, or you could improve. So let's say you go through the first 24 minutes at 150, the first four minutes at 150, and then you go up to 28, and you hold that 150 for the at the 28. So it's a little bit easier. Then you come back down to 24 and you're starting minute nine. You can either hold the 150, or if you want to go a little faster, these next four minutes, this is when you can drop your overall split. So let's say you drop it down to 149.5 overall on the average. Then when you go back up to 28, you've got a you can't, your split has to stay 149.5. It can't drop anymore. You could let it go up. So there's some people who's like, you know, you maybe you you miss a little bit and you let it climb up to 147 or 149.7, and um, then you gotta like bring it back down. So it's you can only improve your old overall average when you're going at 24. And uh the 28 becomes quote unquote, you know, rest. Got it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, interesting. We're almost like tap, you can almost like get into the mode of tapping it and keeping it light to maintain that interesting. Right.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's a skill. Like that is what we talked about even just a little bit earlier. Like, how do we get people to go really hard but not disrupt things? How do we get people to move in a way that's very economical, very efficient, because they're gonna need to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I like that because you know, like you said, it's what you're saying about like a counter playing a counter rhythm uh for the same piece of music. Because normally, you know, with the like the Mike Scracklin method, is it like every time the rate goes up, the you know, you've got to somehow produce more wattage and the speed's gotta go up with it. Um, but it's interesting to have the opposite where it's like, no, no, no, if the rate comes up, like just stay efficient when we come down is when you're we're digging in. You're like, oh. Like normally that's not the case, but I I kind of like the fact that because you're playing with it like that, now that your guys are gonna be just more aware of the effect that they can have. And you know, it's not it's not dogmatic, it doesn't have to be this at this rating, like it's kind of learning how to maintain speed really effectively. I really like that. Jeez, that's cool. I feel like I want to try that.
SPEAKER_01Fun workout.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'll bet.
SPEAKER_01It's a tough one. It catches you off guard. You're like, this isn't gonna be too bad, but it it uh yeah, it it is tough.
SPEAKER_02How many do you do, or do you just do one? I feel like one would be enough if you did it well.
SPEAKER_01One one 32-minute piece. That's that's it. That's about all you can handle. Got it.
SPEAKER_02Isn't it no? Ed McNeely, I remember Kerber sent me a book at one point. Isn't he a Canadian coach? Am I getting that right, or a CC coach or something like that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, he's he was uh I I'm not sure what Ed's up to presently, but you know, he was working a lot with Al Morrow and the Canadian national team um in the the 90s and even in the 2000s. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02If you could give one piece of advice to each of the following people who is looking to really excel in the sport of rowing, what would you say to a rower, to a coxswain, and to a coach?
SPEAKER_01To the rower, um, I would say look in the moments when you're really struggling, those are the moments to double down on your process and be really engaged, right? Usually when we say, oh, like I like it's a tough time, that's when you actually have the opportunity to learn the most. Um and so as you're kind of like pressing and it's a tough time, like take a step back, look at where you are in the picture, and do as much as you can because like you know, things often when things are tough, that's because you're in the process of figuring it out. And so lean into it. And you know, that comes with a copy out of make sure you know you don't want to be doing things too much, you don't want to burn out, but you want to have faith in your system that as you're progress you're progressing and you're pushing yourself, you see it all the way through. Um to a coxsin, uh, I would say aviate, communicate, navigate, um, which is opposite of what pilots get, right? Um, but just you know, the most important thing here is safety and drawing a line and just like be okay with it, be okay with that. You don't have to say anything. Like you can just you can draw through that. Um, my other piece of advice for coxswains would be get to know your rowers, not as rowers, just as people. Um, that's one of the things that we you know we're ultimately responsible for as coaches and coxswains, like making sure we know how people tick and what people need and what they don't need. So take that time to get to know your rowers and listen. Listen. It's not about what you say, it's about what you hear. Um, and to coaches, um, I would say one of the things I try to remind myself of a lot is that coaching is a service job. This is a career of service. It is we are here to give, we are here to create a spite, a space, an environment for others. Our role is to remove obstacles in some ways for our athletes. It is to not remove others and let them solve through them. It is to create that environment for them to grow, but ultimately it is one of service. And when we get out of that environment, that's when I feel um we're missing the forest, the trees ourselves.