Erin Cafaro - "Butterflies and Ninjas"

https://www.teamusa.org/us-rowing/athletes/Erin-Cafaro

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SPEAKER_00 0:19

My guest today is one of the most decorated female rowers in American history. She helped the United States win gold in the women's eight in both the 2008 Beijing Olympics and the 2012 London Olympic Games. She is also a five-time medalist at the World Rowing Championships, including three gold medals. My guest is a two-time honoree of the World Rowing Female Crew of the Year and was the 2009 U.S. Rowing Female Athlete of the Year. She was a standout oarsman at Cal from 2002 to 2006, helping the Golden Bears win the NCAA Championship in both 2005 and 2006. She's currently serving as a volunteer assistant on Cal's coaching staff. I'm honored to have as my guest today Aaron Kafara.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Yeah, thanks for having me on, Matt. The doctorate degree is going, still in progress. I would equate it to a 20K piece, maybe. And so I'm like in the first, yeah, it's that would be the first 4K of the piece. So I am um bright and cheery right now, but I think that the second, the middle, middle part of the 20K is is coming on pretty hard and fast. So uh yeah, it's been good.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Well, for the folks who don't necessarily know, what um what are you studying? What are you going to be a doctor of or planning to be a doctor of?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Um I am working on my doctorate in clinical psychology. So um instead of focusing mostly on on research, which uh I'm still gonna do a project, most likely uh surrounding performance in transition, but instead of focusing on research, I'm going to be working with, you know, in either in a clinic or one-on-one in a private practice or with a team.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

I mean, it seems like you you almost might be right at home with a future Olympic team or something like that, helping um helping in that sense.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Yeah, I I I mean I hope so. I hope I can merge, you know, my two lives of if you will, together to help um, you know, other athletes create um, you know, where my heart really is at. And I think it's it's probably because it's just most recent experience I've had is is the difficulty in transition from going from sport into terminology that I'm borrowing from the military is civilian life. So yeah, I I would love to help USOC or IOC with their mental health and transitional work. I also am really intrigued with the military side of things. I I think that there's yeah, I think that there's a there's a more than a a need for more psychological support within our military complex. So, and I think that there's a lot of overlap, actually. You know, granted, athletes' lives are not in danger every every time we we go out to competition, if you will. But yeah, I see a lot of this um difficulty transitioning from being in this really like attuned team tribe environment to a very like disconnected community once once you're done with sport and how how difficult that is. I mean, I I would be remiss to not mention the the book, uh Space and Younger's book Tribe. That that really kind of brought that concept to light for me.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Well, best of luck. Uh, hope you do well with it. Um, we'll have to check in with you maybe a little bit down the line and see how things are going.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

In the middle, 10K. Right. There's always a different store in the middle, right? Yep.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Where are you from originally? Where's hometown?

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Hometown is in the Central Valley of California. Um, used to be a little old town called Modesto, but now it's um yeah, I think it's made its uh name for itself on the map. Um it's a it was predominantly an agricultural town, but um yeah, I think it's actually one of the the bigger um, it's not nearly as big as Sacramento, but one of the bigger cities in in um Central Valley of California now. And um there was absolutely no rowing. Um, I mean, it would be hard to row because the only body of water um that was close by were canals to um irrigate the the farmland. Um and so yeah, my sports growing up were um I actually started out with classical ballet, did that for about 12 years, and then um transitioned into softball, um, basketball and track and field. Um but yeah, basketball I always I always say is is still my true love.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Gotcha. What about uh can you tell us a little bit about your family, maybe about uh what your what your folks do or did? Um any siblings? You know, what what do they do?

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Yeah, my dad, um he was a chemical engineer and so um you know worked in the food production plants. Um so was in you know the ad business as well. He actually left a it was my senior year, senior fall. I wanted to just walk on a team um to play basketball in college because I I just I just had this feeling I I wanted to be on a team. But he left a newspaper article on the on the kitchen counter about this girl from Turlock, who is uh my basketball arrival school. This girl got a full ride scholarship to University of San Diego, and she was going to row for the US rowing team that summer, and she was looking to join the Olympics, and my sassy little self was like, well, if this girl from Turlock can do it, uh I can do it. And so I just started calling around to different schools up and down the West Coast, seeing, you know, I called, called Jan Harville up at UW. I called, I forget who, I think it was Amy Fuller was at Stanford at the time, called UCLA, and I was just asking, um, you know, what what does it take to walk on? Um, this was when rowing, you know, Title IX was really just kind of kicking in. I feel like, you know, you could still walk on as uh on the women's rowing team without any um experience. And I, as far as I understand, that's that's pretty rare these days, just because of how much the sport has grown. You know, nobody really uh called me back. You know, I I forget who it was, but somebody said, Oh, you know, what's your what's your 2K score? And I was like, 2K. Okay. So this was before the table. Um and so I looked around and found that there was a local rowing club in Stockton, which was like 30 to 45 minutes away from my hometown. They had a rowing club that, you know, just started up. And so I went out there and I was like, I gotta, I gotta pull this 2K. I think it was like a model A. It's it was like a bicycle wheel erg for sure.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Oh wow. You had the that's like definitely the first generation.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

It was it was legit with you know, like the the flat wooden footboards and everything. Yeah, just kind of plopped down. I was like, okay, 2,000 meters. And of course, you know, as one one does, doesn't remember really remember all of the 2K, but I just remember getting a score and being like, okay, well, I guess I'm just gonna give them the score. And it was um, yeah, that was when when I gave them my score, that was when I really didn't hear back from anybody. No, none of the coaches called. I mean, I'm not necessarily a rowing specimen. Like my my physique is is not, you know, I'm not, I'm five, nine on a good day, one sixty stopping wet. So I wasn't gonna be, you know, the next dream kid to walk on to the rowing team where the coach is like, oh, it's fine, we'll just teach her how to row. Yeah, I think I I I you know the number changes every time I tell this story, but I think it was like around nine, nine and a half minutes for the 2K. And and so, yeah, radio silence after that. And so my I do I have an older brother, he is a year older, and he was playing football at Cal. Legit athlete. I still think the best athlete in the family. Well, I don't think I know he's the best athlete in the family. Looked up to him, and and um he always let me play with he and his friends growing up too. So I I had that kind of competitiveness about me, you know, fortunately from having a good old older brother. I reached out to the Cal coach um at the time, and it was Ellen Menzer, who was who was the freshman coach for Davo, I think when he first got there. So I was talking back and forth with her, and then she ended up leaving, and Sarah Nevin came on board. You know, they said, Well, your brother's football player at Cal, so you must be somewhat of a decent athlete. You know, come for a uh come for a visit. I think I just hopped on to somebody else's official visit. There's like all these girls from CRI that were just, you know, tall and beautiful and God's gift of rowing. And here is me like romping around. And um, I remember Sarah asking, like, okay, so like what what are your guys' 2K scores? And I was like, Oh, I I know what that is, I know what that is. And so I like told her like 937 or something. And she looked at me and she said, I'm gonna pretend like you didn't know that. And I recommend that you don't ever mention that again. Just say you haven't done one yet. But yeah, they ended up, you know, tagging my application. I um got to walk on the team. Yeah, that was that was pretty much how I got started.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

So, you know, your first time rowing was in college. And so, you know, you go down for your first couple days. You know, what kept you going? What was the thing that that kept you coming back day after day and and getting excited about it?

SPEAKER_01 10:47

I think it's a trait that I don't know if I had before. This is this is my something I think about often. Do rowers like rowing because they're obsessive, or do they become obsessive be because they row? So I don't know what started what, but I think that there was something in my like uh tendency of like just really wanting to get the stroke down. It reminded me a lot of like free throws, you know, every single stroke was similar, but it changed. Like, and I just loved how how I could just make minor little adjustments to make it feel different and make it me, you know, the numbers go faster or make the boat go faster or sink up better with you know the person in front of me typically. Uh because it was typically in Dow. Yeah, I I think that really was what kind of drew me to this sport uh or kept me there. Yeah, I guess I'll I'll say that drew me there. And then what kept me there was when I walk on to Cal, there was this great senior class that had been there, obviously, for four years. They just really set this culture, you know, with the help of of Devo, of course, but these women just really like to work hard. There was, they were really just driven, and it just seemed really simple. Like the way they it was, you know, show up, do the work, go fast, and go home and, you know, take care of yourself and do it again the next day. And there was something just very, I mean, it sounds very militant, but there was also something very satisfying about, yeah, just the simplicity of it that I really liked. And these women were inspirational to say the very least. You know, me at the time, who was a novice rower and like talked to me, um, even though they're, you know, senior fast, just amazing rowers. One of the one of the gals was uh Megan Cook, who was on, who was a staple of the the US rowing team for a really long time. Yeah, she uh she's she's another one who would be amazing to have uh a conversation with um on the podcast. But yeah, so she was one of the ones that um, you know, she's about my size as well. I'd like to think I'm a little bit taller, but maybe not. But yeah, she kind of took me under her wing and um even you know, as a freshman, as a like nobody, if you will, that kept me there. I was trying to think of a like a uh story I could share that shows the uh kind of connection you can create in rowing, and also just this the hard decisions, um and and sometimes brutal decisions that you have to make as well in order to advance in the sport. Um, and so it reminded me of a story about Megan Cook and probably one of the hardest decisions, you know, looking back on my career, this is like probably one of the hardest decisions um I had to make. So um yeah, I guess it started out and met her at Cal, you know, just thought she, well, still think she's a goddess. Uh, and just she was just able to make everybody in her boat go faster. I mean, being our size, um it's not really as much of a power game, it's just you know, it's a strength uh ratio, but also can you make um somebody else who is, you know, bigger and stronger go faster? And she just did that so well. And um, you know, when I got invited to the US national team um in 2006, she was there. That was the year she doubled up. She was in the pair. I think she was in the pair that year. She was in the double one of those years too. But she was in the pair and in the eight when they um, you know, broke the the world record. I think that was like the first time, and then you know, broke the world record every year after that. But um that was that was the crew that basically started it all. Even with that, they came back. So I I made uh the four, which was not an Olympic event um at the time. You know, even after that, she came back, and I remember that fall, just really struggling. You know, this was 2007 or going into 2007, the year before the Olympics. So it's just like Olympic trials year, and I just really I think it was my fourth year, fifth year in the sport, and uh struggling. And I I just, you know, asked her if she would go on extra rows with me, and she she always said yes. So she always took me out for extra rows, she always like let me do circles and just set up the boat. My favorite like coaching cue that she she would give was like, you know, we're talking about the soft catches before, but yeah, she would call, she would call out as we were going up into uh the catch and say ninja, and then as we were on the recovery, she would say butterflies. Um and yeah, just just analogies like that that just is like, oh, okay. So like I'm supposed to put my catch in like a ninja and then just like light on the recovery, and it just having her be this like coach that gives this immediate feedback loop, I think, was absolutely pivotal for teaching me how to um how to row, how to move a boat, and I think also how to be a good teammate and like realize that you know, my greatest asset wasn't gonna be adding power to the boat necessarily, but to make everybody else on the boat go faster. So yeah, with that, you know, again, and I think 2007 was when she was in the double. I might be getting this wrong, sorry, cook. She had this tragic back injury. I think when they were at oh, I was there too in 2007 and the four as well. So non-Olympic boat, but um, yeah, I think her back totally went out, and she wasn't able to do the Olympic qualifying regatta that year at the world championships. Probably like, you know, just worst nightmare as a rower, like getting injured at the course, right? Right before competition. That timing just really sucked, and and and I can't remember what the diagnosis was, but it wasn't it wasn't good. So she was out for a while that fall. In the year in 2008, I started figuring stuff out. You know, I started making boats go fast. It came around to the spring. I was, you know, one of one of the top ports. I think it was like a month or two out from like a the nationals, uh, the NSRs, or the national selection regatta. And um, I broke my rib. So I I got injured. And I was like, oh great, yeah, this is of course, you know, this timing totally sucks. Here goes my Olympic dreams down down the drain. But I rehabbed at the time, um, Tom let us pair up. Like, so he let us select who if I can remember, if I can remember correctly, he let us select who we wanted to um pair up with to do the trials um for the um Olympic selection. So I I was pretty much out of the game.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

But she kept on asking me. She said, you know, I really she she was she was not really, she was not in the top eight anymore. She wasn't in the running. Yeah, I think the the injury that summer just it just really put her out of, you know, she wasn't getting any favors from Tom, especially being shorter. Like you almost it it's really hard to yeah, work your way back in, especially if you're injured. And so I remember she kept on asking me, you know, hey, like I hope you're doing well. If you are ready, I would love to do the NSR with you. I remember still being like somewhat recovered, but not really. And I just it it was is I don't know if you can hear it in my voice, but it was it was a hard decision. I thought about it for, I think we only had like a a week at the time, and I told her I I didn't want to do it because I just wanted, you know, if anything, I just was gonna wait for seat racing at the end um after NSRs. I guess I I don't know if I'm expressing this well enough, but I I kind of knew that that's this her doing well at NSRs was gonna be like her real last chance to get a a good seat race and get a good chance to go into the Olympics. And I said no. I think I I yeah, I I wasn't completely healed. I also kind of was playing the system as well. Like I knew if I had a bad result, even if I was injured, or you know, if by some crazy chance we we won the pair, um that I wasn't gonna get a medal. So I knew that wasn't gonna be the event that I wanted to be in, anyways. Um, but with that I knew that was gonna be pretty much one of her her her best chances to make the boat. So just thinking about that that story makes me think how hard it it is to be competitive and also be, you know, a good teammate. I think it is possible to do both, but there are just really tough decisions that you have to make in order to make fast boats. I I share that story because I I really one of the questions I get a lot is are you are you best friends with everybody that you rode with? You must be so tight with everybody that you got your gold medals with. And I I think about that. And that yeah, I think we have a special bond for sure. In order to make fast boats, you you necessarily are rowing with your best friends. And that's I would love to think that there are other boats out there, you know, that are like that. But I I just think that sometimes it just really depends what you want out of your career and what you want out of the sport and what you want out of your life at that at that moment. And at that moment, I wanted to uh get a go to the Olympics and get a medal.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

In a lot of ways, I think it's kind of refreshing actually to hear. I think I think any of us would probably say, you know, we we would love for the ideal to be in. In the fastest boat possible with all of our, you know, quote, best friends who are our best friends in our personal lives, in our athletic lives, in our professional lives, in all those ways. You know, all the people that you really click with the best. But I you know, that's I just don't know if that's really uh realistic. I think that's I think that's very fair. I'm trying to think of any other boats that even come to mind. I I think of only the only other boat that that really clicks to my mind when I think about it is the uh the New Zealand men's pair. They talk about that all the time and they're both like the totally opposite people. It was very much like like a calculated, like, hey, look, you're good for me, I'm good for you, let's work together, let's let's find a way to make this work. You know, I think we're we can make a boat go really fast. And that was fine. And you know, not not to say that you know, those two individuals or any individuals in in a boat that's fast wouldn't like each other, but you know, maybe it's just not a click thing, but everybody's of the understanding, like, hey, let's let's contribute to this and something great will come out of it. So but I think that's an important point to make. It's not always gonna happen that way, that you're in the boat with all your best buddies all the time.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Or it's you know, it's and that's that is what you want out of the sport, right? Um, and I think that's something that I've embarrassingly recently just come to realize is okay too. Um, it's okay not to win and to like win it. That wasn't where I was at that point in my life. But yeah, that's interesting that you you mentioned um Eric Murray and um Hamish. And because I when I was uh did my short stint as a as a coach, um, was taking you know two of my former teammates to the trials in 2016. We had this training camp out in New Zealand. Can't believe I can't remember his name right now, but their their original coach, good old Dick Tom. He he was uh a salty, salty old man, but I just I loved it. Like I I guess I was just kind of used to it. I don't know. I guess we can we can call Tom Salty as well. Um so uh Tom Terhard, my US coach. But yeah, I I guess I I just appreciated it. Like I appreciate someone who's not gonna like be too easy on you. Um but I he let me come out in the launch with him um and let uh you know my girls uh at the time do pieces alongside, you know, Emma and um Mahe and um I think Hamish and and Eric were doing their own thing. But um he said something one time um to me that I really resisted and I I just really wanted to call bullshit on and prove him wrong. But he said there's times when uh when a boat just doesn't click. You just gotta let it go. And he was talking about um in Italy, they used to, or maybe they still do, I don't know, but he he told me that he they would uh send two guys out um or put two guys in the pair, push them off the dock, tell them to row 10 strokes out, and then they would stop and they would either call him back in or let him keep going. When it clicks, it clicks. When it doesn't, it doesn't. Like you know right from the beginning. And I just I that just bothered the shit out of me. I was like, that's such bullshit. Like I think, you know, anybody can connect, anybody can um work together. It's just you know, it's a matter of being open to it. But um yeah, I I think maybe that that is somewhat of why I've gone into the world of psychology too, because I I truly do still believe people can, anybody can and can click with another, but I I do think to that point, like there is something about connecting in a boat um and making a boat go fast that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to connect as humans, you know, or connect as friends rather.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

I I'll take the devil's advocate aside of it and say, well, um, and say I actually feel like I would agree with him. I I I've I've always loved the biomechanical biomechanical aspect of the sport. You know, if you asked uh Chris or Mike, who I who I also coach with, like I'm I'm a nerd about that kind of stuff. And even like the way that we look at you know how the quote the body should look when it's rowing is actually totally, in my mind, I think it's very much in many ways antithetical to the way the body naturally moves. Like, you know, you know, pushing the legs long, opening the body at this point, etc. etc. etc. It's kind of like, well, there's a lot of crews that don't do any of that, and um, they're quite strong. And so how much of that actually matters, and you know, and maybe there's other ways to do it. But the other thing, too, is also that, you know, you've got two people's my dog sneezing, sneezing, stop sneezing. If uh but you know, if you've got two athletes who, based upon a whole host of factors, right, like, you know, shin length, um, arm length, the ratio of arms to leg length, you know, how tall their torso is compared to their arms, you kind of the breakdown of their even their muscle fibers, like all their movements and then their mobility, dismo um immobility, and how that affects the overall um fingerprint of the power curve that they generate, um, and even though how much they weigh or don't weigh, that really does predetermine a lot. I mean, that's where I not not to say that like it's uh it's always gonna be taller people or shorter people, not not even not even close. I knew a guy that I kind of peripherally coached um at UW, or at least kind of as he was exiting, I was able to see him for a year. Um but totally like undersized, you know, kind of almost scrawny. Like you stand him next to another guy on the men's heavyweight team, and you're like, really? Like, why is he in the varsity? But an uncanny ability to connect to the boat, uncanny blade efficiency, and just super fast with whoever you put him with. And it wasn't, you know, I mean, it was almost like, okay, you know, there's there's clearly some inherent stuff here going on. Um you can adjust it, you can move with it, but there's no doubt about it. I think we were there's there's some stuff you just I don't know if you can change. So I think that's interesting. Has your attitude changed, adjusted to that since that time? How do you feel about it now?

SPEAKER_01 28:00

I think I agree with it partially. I I think if you are not willing to put a lot of work in, then it will be hard, you know. It um I I and I do I do agree that there are some combinations that just click. Um, but there I also don't know um if you can measure it. Like I don't know if well, you can always measure it, but like biologically measure it, I'm saying, like, or physically measure it. Because, you know, say put like no one in their right mind would put me and um Susan Francia together in a pair, or even even more so, me and um Elle Logan, who is like, you know, the most decorated woman's rower. But yet it worked. And so I think that there's we can get so stuck in this like physical context of um, you know, how rowing should look or or the technique when there's all these like um contextual factors that we're not taking into account. So I I guess I agree in that and also disagree in that. I think everybody should be given a chance to row with everybody. You know, Tom, Tom did a when I was on the team, did a great job of that. Like we just had constant parametrics going on throughout the year. And I think that actually makes a really resilient rower to be able to like when you have that one person that you click with, it makes it, it makes it so if makes it feel so good. Um But when um you don't, you learn how to work through um difficult relationships.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

What you were saying there about um providing uh creating an environment where opportunities are, you know, there's a lot of different opportunities for um different types of athletes or individuals to thrive. I think that's actually a common trait, or maybe just a uh what's a good way to put this? Yeah, a common trait of of very effective organizations, maybe in general. Rowing programs for sure, and I only say that because having encountered a few people like that, Tom being one of them, um, but I feel like programs that allow for genuine, like unbiased competition where the results truly uh dictate what's going to happen with the boats. And I feel that more, you know, many, many programs do this now these days, but it wasn't always like that. You know, it's at one point in rowing's history it was much more kind of the coach's decision, and it's become much more results-oriented, you know, with the use of parametrices like you're referring to, even just the use of small boats in general as an indicator of true speed. And I also feel that, you know, you brought Dave O before, and he was the first one who uh ever mentioned this to me. And he talked about um he mentioned, he mentioned um at the end of sort of at the end of selection, like 10% to go, he would ask everybody to write down what they thought the lineup should be and and uh provide that to him for him to review. And the reason he used to do that was he said it was to make sure I didn't miss something. Like the sense that, like, hey, look, I know quite a bit about what's going on, but I know I don't know everything. And I want to make sure that the athletes are are allowed an opportunity, or at least a few opportunities in different ways, to communicate something I might not know. And I get a chance to take a look at that. I always thought that was super valuable, and I feel like I've seen that in more and more really successful coaches is that willingness to like, hey, look, let's learn about something that we don't know. Like, let's make sure that we know that we don't know everything and find opportunities to figure that out, versus assuming you know, an ethic or a tradition or what have you is definitely gonna get done. I always found that really young.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

And it and it takes a certain type of coach and a certain type of person. I mean, as you mentioned, you know, to allow this unbiased competition, it just brings to mind that that is that is the ideal. But, you know, unfortunately we we all do have uh, as we're finding out um for some of us, you know, recently now, but um for for a lot of other people, realize how much implicit bias we we already do have, you know. Um, so yeah, I think that is such an important thing to like keep yourself open to possibilities and not just base it off of what someone someone looks like or what someone's stats or um yeah, and that I to kind of go off of that, like I'm also thinking that um to be able, like you said, this works well in like functional corporations as well. And I I think that would to be like responsible, we have to like realize that there's a lot of privilege in being able to row with multiple different people, right? To be able to have resources, multiple boats that you can row with this, you know, multiple different people. Um you know, I just I'm just thinking about my good friend from from Cal. She was, you know, the most successful woman's rower in Serbia. And she would have by far, you know, been had, you know, a much more, you know, successful Olympian, but she didn't have anybody else to row with. So she had to enter the hardest event in uh in rowing, which is the single. You know, she was a great team rower, but she doesn't have like the privilege or the resource to be able to like row and um learn from other rowers too.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

If your closest friends could only describe you using three words, meaning three distinct adjectives, which words do you hope that they would use for you?

SPEAKER_01 34:18

I would hope they would describe me as spicy, curious, and um dependable.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Um what drives you and motivates you?

SPEAKER_01 34:35

I think it falls in line with um with that hope of of um it's almost this insatiable curiosity that is um wonderful and maddening at the same time. I'm just like so curious about what I can do, um, what other people can do or have done. Yeah, what more what more I can do to make um you know myself and and the world just a little bit better.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Who is someone that you admire in rowing and why?

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Oh gosh, I don't know if I can just narrow it down. Megan Carcano is definitely top five, if not top two or top person I admire. Um I just think her generosity to the sport her ability to just be so patient and be such a good teacher and friend, yeah. I I'd say Megan Cook Hercano. Um L Logan, I I think her, you know, wonderful physique, um literally God's gift to rowing, um, kind of makes people not realize like how graceful, like how graceful she is. Like she is one of the I really, really admire her ability to just take in things with grace. Like I I don't even know how else to explain it besides like giving a story about um, you know, we were gonna be in um, we were gonna double up in the 2012 Olympics, or we were hoping to in the pair and the eight. And I was so upset when um, you know, Tom decided that Eaton was too unpredictable and um, you know, I it was in in my yeah, in my own kind of like bratty privileged way. I was I was just pissed that we weren't gonna be able to do it. And she literally just talked me down, was like helped me realize um what an amazing opportunity we had to you know create this legacy for the US woman's eight. Um so yeah, she is she's probably one of the most graceful humans and um badass rowers, I think, that the US has ever had and seen.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Prior to a large, you know, an important performance, a race, whatever it is, do you have a pre-performance way, a way to prepare right before that performance, like a pre-race mantra of some type to get yourself focused and ready?

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Yeah, I think I was I was extremely superstitious. Um, I will not bore you all with my neurotic uh routine, but there was there was quite the routine um to get ready for a race. Um and I think kind of being able to look at it through the filter of psychology now, like I think that there is something really grounding and like soothing about yeah, just rooting yourself in a routine before. Um, I mean, I I just the the stupid shit I used to do. I mean, beyond one of the most embarrassing things, I guess I'll share, is that I used to have these like energy drinks that um they're like bright green. And I I had this like super clean, like paleo diet that you know, I wouldn't put anything in my body that wasn't like natural, if you will, who's it was pretty elitist. But um yeah, I had this, I think it was like EAS like super caffeine drink, and I it was it was literally neon green. It was probably the worst thing for you, and I would just I started doing it, I think in 2006, and so I yeah, even um in the warm-up in 2012. I mean, they even discontinued the um the brand probably because it was so bad for you, but I kept it. Uh I kept this um bottle of it only for you know world championships and um Olympics. And yeah, before London, I remember drinking that damn green drink one last time and being like, this is awful. Why the hell am I still doing this? But I guess it kind of worked, or maybe we were just fast. I don't know, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

Um do you have a favorite race course or a favorite regatta? And why?

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Favorite race course. I mean Lucerne is pretty epic. Um, you know, just for the scenery, and then I think also from the for the familiarity, just because we we get to go there so many times. Um, but it was always in the beginning of the season, and those races, they hurt more than any other race I can really remember. Um my favorite race course per se that I I don't remember I probably because I don't remember feeling much pain, um, which is rare, I know. It was like one of those flow states, but it was um in the pears race in 2009 with Susan. We um we doubled up in the pair and the eight, and um, yeah, we got gold in both. And I just remember that pears race like being down. Um, it was really windy too, and it was um, or maybe that was that was in the eight. Yeah, but it I mean it it's it was another bathtub rowing course that not super ideal. Um but uh yeah, I just remember I really liked that race course, A, because we, you know, did really well in both races. Um, but B, because it was like I finally I think that was one of the first moments where I I like really hit this like flow state and I was like, oh my gosh, I need more of this. Like where how you know, how can I what did I do? Did I did I drink more of that green super juice? Or what did I do to make that race so amazing and phenomenal? Like I just felt like I had uh yeah, we had um control over the whole race, even though we only won by like a bow ball, I think.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

If you could only if you could give one piece of advice to each of the following three people, what would you say to a rower, to a coxswain, and to a coach?

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Well, I know what I would say to a coxswain, which is I think uh Mary Whipple's motto information is motivation. And with that, don't say too much information. I I really have a lot of respect for for coxswains that just give you the needed information, and um yeah, when they do talk, it's it's even that much more powerful. The rower. I feel like for the rower, uh the word that just kind of jumps to my mind is is patience. I think rowing is especially the the personality type that that gets attracted to this sport is just this achiever, and um you know, I would even venture to say an overachiever. It's there's like this unconscious development that happens in the sport um not just through hard work, but just through persistence. So yeah, patience would be for the rower. And for the coach, I mean I guess it is similar to the rower, um, in that for a coach, I would say let your rowers develop. I was actually having a conversation with um some coaches a couple days ago, and um it a lot of the coaching that I I've done myself and experienced is um a lot of technique and pushing and and um you know do it this way or that way and not giving the rowers enough space to fail and figure it out on their own. So um yeah, I would say pull back a little bit, let the rowers develop their own trust in themselves.